counterpoint - first species

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ahanysz wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:31 am From B flat to A flat, the bass would be descending, right?
No. If Bb-D is a 10th interval and it ends on a 5th interval, which is implied here, the bass is ascending from Bb to Ab (a 7th - check OP´s fifth post), while D is ascending a half step up to Eb. If bass goes down, you are right, but then we are not dealing with a fifth as ending interval, but an octave + a fifth. Alternatively Bb-D could be a major third by which Bb would be descending to Ab, while D goes up, and you would have the legal contrary motion.

As an extra note, in classical counterpoint Fux style, no leap greater than a fifth is recommended for choir voices to be singable (tho no leap in tritonus would be allowed), except for an octave or minor sixth in upward direction only. So you´d had to reach the 7th above Bb by oblique motion in this example to make it 100% Fux style. It is another deal with instruments of course.

As to personal preferences, they are irrelevant when you train strict counterpoint. Some CFs allow for one solution only, and if you do not follow the rules to an exam, you either won’t pass or will get a lower grade.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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TribeOfHǫfuð wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:44 am
ahanysz wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:31 am From B flat to A flat, the bass would be descending, right?
No. If Bb-D is a 10th interval and it ends on a 5th interval, which is implied here, the bass is ascending from Bb to Ab (a 7th - check OP´s fifth post)
OK, I missed that detail. All right, leap of a 7th, plus approaching a 5th in similar motion, adds up to "bad". Thanks.
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:44 am As to personal preferences, they are irrelevant when you train strict counterpoint. Some CFs allow for one solution only, and if you do not follow the rules to an exam, you either won’t pass or will get a lower grade.
Depends who's teaching. Some CFs allow for multiple "technically correct" solutions, and if you can impress with your sense of style, you might get a higher grade. And some people try to teach musicianship, not just the exam-passing game. Being aware of your preferences and able to articulate them is an important part of life.

(Of course there are situations where you just have to play the exam-passing game for a while first. The OP hasn't given us a lot of context here.)

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ahanysz wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:44 am Depends who's teaching. Some CFs allow for multiple "technically correct" solutions, and if you can impress with your sense of style, you might get a higher grade.
True, in general this happens at higher levels of training but not the basics. As such, you can at any time make a CF with more than one solution, which are legal, thus opening the CF for personal aesthetics. You are also allowed to break the rules if the strict alternative is worse like ending up in unwanted leaps or movements. Fux even showed some examples where he skipped a rule. There are also differences when writing for an orchestra versus choir. Writing for the former, we lose some of Fux’s rules because “singable” is not the deal, but playable is. At my school, you could achieve what corresponds to an A with the strict basics, but if you wanted to make it to A+, you would have to show some uniqueness at higher levels.

And we should not forget the ideal of the fifth species either, all of them together in florid counterpoint. This is where the intuition is supposed to take over and rule the game, sticking to the frame, but running free within in a combi of rule following and breaking. E.g, what Fux does not teach is how to make a “good” melody, only singable ones and how to arrange voices to one. The good and beloved melody is a gift from God to the musician granting him individuality and uniqueness.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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Thanks all...I suspect I will be back with more 'species' questions as I go through the material. I am also seeing rules that on the melodic line, to not use M7, m7 and augmented 2nds and augmented 4ths....just stuff I have to commit to memory. Thanks again

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may I ask, why are you subjecting yourself to this

/ at conservatory, second year for those of us in Honors curriculae WAS Species. I had done two years of heavy chromatic part-writing (incl my prep period) and the last thing I wanted was to dwell in the whatever doG-forsaken century that was for. "to not use" all the good ones, I'll pass. It's like a lot of things, though, it's a discipline in itself and teaches problem-solving towards a result.

TribeO loves that shit, I'm baffled

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What’s up? What I love is being trained in it. Not imitating Fux’s nor even Palestrina’s styles as such. I have used free counterpoint ever sinced I passed my exams. I do not think in rules, I just do whatever I do and may correct a dissonant clash or two if my intuition fails me. Somebody asked a question, and I answered. There is no danger in learning the old deeds. A question of personal preference.

BTW: I had a couple of A’s in counterpoint, but ironically my only A+ was for a Jazz tune I made and arranged for our big band despite not knowing the discipline even half as in debth as I knew counterpoint. There is something about melodic and harmonical sense that no discipline could ever teach me but just had to arise from practise and imagination.

BTW 2: I have one tune, which has some inspiration from Fux’s melodic minimalism and close harmonizations, apart from two important things: 1) It is in 5/8, which Fux does not teach you :lol: (and neither to use percussion). 2) It has choir voices, which quite deliberately move in the forbidden parallel fifths and generally make use of open intervals. This to get a pre-Fux taste too and to leave room for the harmonized melodies. Palestrina would be more into open intervals but hardly as bold as I use them here. Everything is counterpointed to the harp by default. Thus it is some genre mix but draws on a few classical sources. I do not think I would be able to do it without training. Natural talents may, but I am no such. Got to get it in with years of practise. :roll:

It is a contribution to a Reason contest. Only the hybrid software synthesizer Algoritm by Reason Studios is in use

https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154/t ... the-sickle
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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That is a really good question. I don't know any Music Theory (don't really even play any instrument) but needed something to do. I am retired and school is free for people over age 65 at the University, so I signed up. It is very odd being 66 and having 18 year old classmates for sure. Got a 95% on Music Theory I and that course seems like it has just given me the tools and looks like Music Theory II begins to show how to use them. Not sure that there will be any practical use for me in gaining the knowledge, but it keeps my brain stimulated , Hopefully you all don't mind my asking questions along the way

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"it's a discipline in itself and teaches problem-solving towards a result."
I personally found no need for it. If I were in a composition major I will have had to suck it up. Brazieal had to at SFCM. He's not a better contrapuntalist than me, certainly. No one is! :P

I wondered out loud why someone is doing it and it seems like they're doing it kind of early, rather than a composition program

I also found the 12-tone rows elective disagreeable because I'm to be graded on the quality of my rows. I did enough to where I can make that up out of whole cloth, too. Different strokes, yo

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Hopefully you all don't mind
of course not. It's different than the usual fare, anyway

interesting. It's good chewing gum for the brain I guess. I had a horror of a music history course concurrent with theory (we never got to Palestrina by the time I dropped it, half a year had gone by) and I'm still allergic to the the stuff, let's just say pre-Palestrina. I'm so not the one with answers on this material but I recognize a probable problem with landing on a fourth to the 'tonic', statically, it's to be resolved.

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"It is in 5/8, which Fux does not teach you"

pretty sure you'd be guillotined for it at the time

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jancivil wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:37 pm "It is in 5/8, which Fux does not teach you"

pretty sure you'd be guillotined for it at the time
Well, I could surely kiss a career at the King’s court, opera, ballet or church goodbye. That wouldn’t leave much else to do. Maybe a shady tavern?
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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did they even have all that, back in the dark ages

:P

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1725? Fux’s time? Yes. or Palestrina 1600th century? Yes. There are also some Pagan tendencies, e.g. the 5/8 and percussion, from way before but the theater is said to be developed over 2500 years, so they must have coexisted too. Thanks for granting me a nerd question…dear serialist (or chromatist and way beyond).

However, the guillotine was invented 1792, so at Fux’s time they’d chop my head off with an axe, hang me, burn me at the stake or whatever.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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jancivil wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:35 pm I'm still allergic to the the stuff,
Your doctor cannot prescribe a salve?
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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I'm not much of an historian, mind. I don't know what the euro riffraff was up to in them daze. or that factoid re: the guillotine :oops:

allergies are still allergies. My salve is ignore that, but the memory of poring over cassette tapes of shitty budget labels of plainchant and charged to describe in detail the differences and_why prevails. Essay questions. And yes, it's ignorant of me to conflate or confound that with Fux.

Later I tried to grok 'Modal Counterpoint" in the library but I grew weary fast.

https://youtu.be/_qI1sxmbdRc
Fux' music is actually tonal here
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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