No Linux version?

[Tiles]

I don't stop you. And i too wish you just the best. Whatever works for you is just fine. And this part was never the question. I have a high respect for FrettedSynth in this regards for example. He states that Linux is simply enough for him. And then all is said, and we are both happy. But that's not the case with you. You are unhappy that so many people don't use Linux for music.

The question is this crazy idea that you just need to convince people enough with The Truth™ about Linux. So that they can "see" how great it really is. And that everybody who does not use Linux for Music is completely clueless. Which simply will not work. These masses of people who uses Windows and Mac instead of Linux are not dumb and clueless. But in fact very clecver. They use what does the job best. As told numerous times now, there is a reason why so few musicians uses Linux. And this reason is not "This Tiles". The reason is the massive lack of software. Which is simply a fact.

I am just the messenger. I explain the why. Nothing more.

[Guenon]

Please also do not put words into my mouth after I've left, thanks.

[Tiles]

I did not put words into your mouth my friend. Stop insulting me again. Thanks.

[audiojunkie]

There is Windows and there is Mac. That's where the musicians are, that's where the market is. And then there are over 600 Linux distributions. And then you know already one reason why so few developers develops for "Linux". Which Linux? Arch, Debian, RedHat and its derivates? Even an exotic one? Which desktop? Which package manager? There is no The Linux. And so there cannot be a The Linux version.

My advice is to use the OS where the software is available for.

Back with your antagonism again? You are spewing FUD about Linux, when your knowledge on the subject is ten years (at least) behind. Linux has solved the problems you mentioned in all of the previous posts you made.

For those independently minded who want to confirm for yourself that Tiles’ is being an antagonistic troll, I encourage anyone to do two things:

1. Do a search of KVR forums under the Author: Tiles, and with the word: Linux. He follows Linux threads and tries to stir up controversy and contention.
2. Research Linux with the subjects of Immutability, and sandboxing and containerization tools such as Flatpaks, Appimages, Snaps, Toolbx, and Distrobox.

Linux has solved the problems of dependency hell, solved the problems of development when there are multiple distros and developers don’t want to compile binaries for all of them, and solved the need to worry about differing package managers. Through the use of immutability, sandboxing, containerization and other separation technologies, it no longer matters what distro a developer writes or compiles binaries on, because that app can now run without problems on the distro of one’s choice. An ideal example of this is Fedora’s Silverblue distro and the leveraging of immutability, Flatpaks, Appimages, Toolbx, and Distrobox. Even Snaps could be used if one really wanted to. And through virtualization, emulation, and compatibility layer technologies, 99% of the world’s software over the last 50 years can run without problems on Linux. Granted, these technologies exist in various forms for Windows and Apple users as well, so there is not much difference in this aspect between the three desktop OSes. But the point is, that Tiles’ attempts to scare users away from linux is nothing more than antagonistic trolling.

Granted, we Linux users would indeed prefer native Linux versions of plugins and software, because of convenience and improved stability. Everyone likes convenience—even Linux users. We do indeed desire to see increased development in this area. We linux users are growing in number, and do indeed intend to purchase more audio software—provided it doesn’t use challenge/response copy protection. For examples on how to best do serial number or software key authentication, see developers like U-he, TAL, Loomer, Audio Damage, AudioThing, etc.

We encourage developers to research the old linux arguments in light of the new technologies, so that they too will understand that Linux is no longer like it used to be, and that the major problems have been resolved.

[audiojunkie]

There is Windows and there is Mac. That's where the musicians are, that's where the market is. ...

Tiles, I have 30 years experience in audio using Mac, Windows and Linux. Linux is by far the most stable OS system and Pipewire is the most advanced audio stack out there.

Even here at KVR, there are 33 pages of Linux plugins in their database. And if there is a Windows plugin you must have, it'll probably run with a bridging app like yabridge. Plugin developers wouldn't make Linux versions if there wasn't a market for it.

Lots of artists and engineers, including myself, have great worklows, active careers and make a living using DAWs on Linux. In fact, one of my reasons for moving to Linux is more profitably vs a comparable Windows/Mac system. No iLok crap, almost no subscriptions (I don't have any), and reasonably priced DAWs that don't try to screwover their user base. You should give it a try.

Give it a try? Like touching it and being convinced already? The myth again that you just neeed to convince people strong enough with The Truth™ ?

See, this propaganda trick does not work since over 25 years. Starts already with the myth that Linux is oh so stable. Ubuntu gave me regularly obscure warnings. And crashes is nothing unknown to me. Debian still dislikes a sudo nemo in a vanilla installation. And i cannot count anymore how often i have battled with dependencies. Anyways. My first Linux was a Suse back in 99. And already there was my first question, yeah, nice, but where's the software? And the second was regarding usability. What the ...

There is a reason why Linux at the desktop is between 2 and 3 % market share since over 25 years. And just a very small fraction of them really makes music. And then you know that your "lots of artists" is propaganda again. In more than one way. I am one. I could not work at Linux, my Software is missing. And so cannot whole industries. No photoshop means no graphics artist.

People have long voted with their feet. When you want to change it, then Propaganda does not help. You need to fix the issues.

The biggest issue is simply that the software is missing. The software at which you so proudly point at is just a fraction of what is available at Windows. And as a developer i can also tell you why it is missing. Because it is a pain to develop for Linux. Even Linus knows the reasons all. There is a video around why linux sucks at the desktop where he names all the points. Even over ten years old, and still valid. Which shows that the problems will never be fixed. But anyways. I have lead this discussion at this board one time too often already.

Good luck with your Linux. May you never be in the situation where your limited software pool is not enough anymore. Like here ...

My advice stays the same though. First look what software you need, THEN look at which OS it works. Not vice versa. Don't limit yourself without a good reason. You have a job to do. And this job is called music. Not Linux.

One must wonder why Tiles brings up the same rehashed arguments even after his arguments have been refuted over and over. At least he’s no longer trying to claim that his frequently used “Linus” argument isn’t over TEN YEARS OLD. How many people remember Windows during its Vista years? Tiles talks about Linux from 10 years ago as if the OS hadn’t made any progress since that time. When we bring up the technologies and solutions that have been developed since then, he refuses to acknowledge them, and then searches for another thread to continue spreading his misinformation. If that isn’t the definition of an antagonistic troll, I don’t know what is.

Edit: If anyone desires for him/her self to see further examples of Tiles’ antagonistic trolling, please carefully read the following thread:

viewtopic.php?t=607363

[audiojunkie]

Ah, I should have known it. As you might have noticed in the other thread, propaganda lies will not work at me. I know Linux in and out

unfortunate factual errors and deliberate misinformation.

Just curious, does The Truth™ about Linux allow you to run for example this instrument here? https://impactsoundworks.com/product/sh ... 3-stratus/ . As as reminder, it requires Kontakt ...
And does The Truth™ about Linux allow you to run KVR Studio, which this thread is about? Just to remember, here an user asks for a Linux version ...
And does The Truth™ about Linux change anything at the fact that the market share is 2-3% since over 25 years, flatlining? Fun fact, this 2-3% is not made of musicians. But mainly of programmers and developers. Linux distros is a niche os each. There are just a hand full of Musicians. A small fraction of the small fraction so to speak. Far far, really far away from lots of ...

When software is simply not available then it's not a question of workflow. Then it's a question of not being able to complete your job. And i have a job to do.

I just points at the facts. I told you already in the other thread, it does not help to kill the messenger. And as also told in the other thread, i will not talk with toxic people.

Oh, and hey, for utility software, distributing as an appimage is worth considering: https://appimage.org

That's what we use. And Flatpak. And Deb. And tar. And there would be even more needed. Since every solution just works at a fraction of the distros and versions. Appimage. Snap and Flatpak all have for example a problem with the GlibC version. First it needs to be high enough that it even builds. And second it needs to be low enough that it runs at as much distros as possible. I repeat, to deploy for Linux is a pain in the butt.

Yes, Impact Soundworks uses Native Instruments’ Kontakt Player, which runs fine on any Linux distribution, through WINE and yabridge. WINEHQ gives the full step by step instructions to run even the latest version of Native Access 2. This is another example of you refusing to acknowledge facts when we point them out—just like in the other thread. One of the oldest threads in KVR is Glowkraw’s commercial Windows plugins on Linux thread. We pointed this out in the other thread too. You refused to acknowledge it.

As I mentioned with your glibc assertation in the previous thread, the glibc problem is a “PEBKAC” problem. (Problem exists between the keyboard and the chair). Someone who knows and uses Linux adequately won’t experience a problem unless he/she causes the problem him/her self. This can easily be done in Windows and MacOS as well—anyone who indiscriminately copies various versions of libraries around will cause errors like these.

I asked you before, and you refused to answer, so I’ll ask you again:

You produce a .DEB version of your product. How would you experience a glibc error if you installed your product on the exact same Linux distro you compiled your .DEB on?

You simply can’t get a glibc error in a case like that, unless you as a developer screwed up.

Now, I’ll take it a step further—if you ran that same distro that you compiled your binary on in a container, how would the glibc inside the container affect the distro that the container is running on?

It wouldn’t. Your distro, regardless of which of the 600+ Linux distros out there you are using, would not be able to see the glibc inside the container, because you effectively enter that container to run that program. Just like a chroot command. And since you are running your app on a container OS that the binary was compiled on, it doesn’t matter what desktop environment is used either.

Distrobox is nothing more than a posix compliant BASH script (a big one) that tightly integrates with the standard container tools, and the base operating system’s home folder. It exports a launcher script to the base distro’s desktop. To a user that is using Fedora, for example, there would be absolutely no visual difference to the user, when clicking on the program icon on the Fedora desktop, that he/she is running a Ubuntu program from Ubuntu operating system libraries, inside of a container. It is completely seamless!

Does it require a bit of a learning curve? Yes. But it works flawlessly, there is almost no performance hit, and with the graphic front end tools available, it is fairly easy to set up. One can run any app from any distro on top of any distro of your choice.

There are no longer any dependency hell issues with Linux if the user knows what he or she is doing.

[Tiles]

Sorry, but repeated propaganda lies and personal insults will not help your point of view. As told in the other thread, i will not talk with toxic people. That's a conversation between us two out.

[audiojunkie]

Not really. I just hate when some people of the Linux fraction starts to lie at people. Because it damages OUR Linux. And i would love to see the quirks be fixed at one point. And not to be talked away. For me all this quirks is just how it is. I deal with it at a daily base.

In one breath, you antagonize Linux and fans of Linux, and in the other breath you try to claim that you are one of us and that we, “lie at the people”, and our comments damage, “OUR Linux”. The phrase, “Two-faced” comes to mind.

To make it easier for everyone involved, I looked the phrase up in German so there will be no misunderstanding by anyone:

The German phrase “zwei Gesichter haben” literally translates as “to have two faces”. When someone has two faces, they are insincere or deceitful. They are hypocritical and false/phony, so you shouldn't trust them.

You claim to know so much about Linux. If you truly knew as much as you claim you do, then you would know that a common Linux base between distros was tried. It failed. A common Linux Standard Base (LSB) is never going to happen. Ever. Yes, it would be ideal, I agree, but its coming to fruition is a fantasy. Separation through immutability, sandboxing, and containerization is the only way forward that will work.

It’s sad that you (and the company you work for) refuse to recognize and accept this. You could save yourselves a lot of work and money, while completely resolving your glibc problems. It’s the way of the future. Some people are stubborn and insist on going their own way—change and lessons learned come hard to people like this.

[audiojunkie]

Sorry, but repeated propaganda lies and personal insults will not help your point of view. As told in the other thread, i will not talk with toxic people. That's a conversation between us two out.

The beautiful part about all if this, despite what you say, is that those who want to know for themselves can independently confirm for themselves that these technologies do indeed resolve the problems you mentioned.

[Tiles]

Thanks again for proving my point. I repeat, i will not talk with toxic people. Thanks for listening.

[audiojunkie]

Thanks again for proving my point. I repeat, i will not talk with toxic people. Thanks for listening.

Your very welcone!

[dan_flash]

I f**king love KVR Drama Threads.

I also f**king love Linux. It's brilliant. I've never owned an Apple product and I ditched Windows years ago. If I can't do it in Linux, then I don't need to do it (every programme and plugin I use is native Linux).

Having said that, while I do think many more audio people should try Linux, at the of the day it doesn't really matter and you should just use an OS that you wanna use for whatever reason.

Having said that again, there are many Linux audio users like me who are dead happy with Linux and would welcome more development and programmes and applications and plugins being compatible with Linux.

[FrettedSynth]

I don't stop you. And i too wish you just the best. Whatever works for you is just fine. And this part was never the question. I have a high respect for FrettedSynth in this regards for example. He states that Linux is simply enough for him. And then all is said, and we are both happy. But that's not the case with you. You are unhappy that so many people don't use Linux for music.

The question is this crazy idea that you just need to convince people enough with The Truth™ about Linux. So that they can "see" how great it really is. And that everybody who does not use Linux for Music is completely clueless. Which simply will not work. These masses of people who uses Windows and Mac instead of Linux are not dumb and clueless. But in fact very clecver. They use what does the job best. As told numerous times now, there is a reason why so few musicians uses Linux. And this reason is not "This Tiles". The reason is the massive lack of software. Which is simply a fact.

I am just the messenger. I explain the why. Nothing more.

Bless ya Tiles, seems nobody in either thread has said people who use an OS other than Linux is clueless. Seems more that whenever Linux is mentioned the same few post that it's impossible, hence the tune I posted on page one.

There are so many audio processing devices out now in both analog and digital, great music can be made in many ways. Use what works for you and leave it at that, don't discourage others from experimentation. Without that wonderful experimentation we would not have what exists today.

Peace

[Tiles]

Bless ya Tiles, seems nobody in either thread has said people who use an OS other than Linux is clueless. Seems more that whenever Linux is mentioned the same few post that it's impossible, hence the tune I posted on page one.

There are so many audio processing devices out now in both analog and digital, great music can be made in many ways. Use what works for you and leave it at that, don't discourage others from experimentation. Without that wonderful experimentation we would not have what exists today.

Peace

Yes i know, you not. But others do. At the contrary, i never stated it is impossible

Either way, we have discussed this so often now. I remain happy for you that you found a working way at Linux. And that the available software is enough for you

[Largos]

Yes i know, you not. But others do. At the contrary, i never stated it is impossible

Either way, we have discussed this so often now. I remain happy for you that you found a working way at Linux. And that the available software is enough for you

So often? Was your other account banned?