KVR Audio

Ned Bouhalassa · Post by **Ned Bouhalassa** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:27 am

Sorry, but how do you explain FM8, or any number of other virtual FM synthesizers? There's even some on iPad/iPhone.

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:42 am

these synths use FM synthesis. A very powerful kind of synthesis to create natural sounds. They are different to traditional subtractive synthesis, they cannot do those typical analog sounds.

With a good analog synth or modular system you can do typical analog sounds and FM sounds, although not so perfectly well like with specialised FM synths like DX7, FM8, etc.

But I think you know this already.

Ned Bouhalassa · Post by **Ned Bouhalassa** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:26 am

In all simplicity, all I know is that I can do analog FM on my Synthi. As easy as osc 1 into 2, or 2 into 1, or 3 into 2, etc. It doesn't sound like digital FM, but it sounds completely different than what I hear with this new instrument.

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:08 am

yes. It's not easy to emulate analog circuitry in the digital realm. There's (almost) always a huge difference between analog (hardware) and digital emulation (software). That's why it still makes sense to have hardware synths.

There are very few softsynths (with subtractive synthesis) that can do FM well.

martin_l · Post by **martin_l** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:10 am

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:So, I can't even do Filter FM. Can anyone confirm that modulation at audiorate speeds is just not possible?

It sounds very much like they recalculate oscillator and frequencies only at a controller rate, which can be significantly lower than audio rate. This is often done to avoid frequent calls to expensive unctions like exponentials.

There should be ways to optimise that and obtain audio range FM, and we can only hope that they improve that in a future update...

By the way, does anybody know whether the same FM problems also exist on faster iPads?

Maybe they put the breaks in to make it run on slower models such as ipad2.

Sans Nom · Post by **Sans Nom** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:26 am

Phil999 wrote:yes. It's not easy to emulate analog circuitry in the digital realm. There's (almost) always a huge difference between analog (hardware) and digital emulation (software). That's why it still makes sense to have hardware synths.

There are very few softsynths (with subtractive synthesis) that can do FM well.

@Phil999
I'm not an expert in FM at all, but I don't see why adding a filter in the process is an hassle. I have to check but I'm pretty sure that Modular V can do FM, though being an ancient VA softsynth.

haj · Post by **haj** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:59 am

martin_l wrote:
By the way, does anybody know whether the same FM problems also exist on faster iPads?

Maybe they put the breaks in to make it run on slower models such as ipad2.

I'm seeing the same behavior on an iPad Air. So I guess it's how it's programmed.

Phil999 · Post by **Phil999** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:04 am

Sans Nom wrote: I'm not an expert in FM at all, but I don't see why adding a filter in the process is an hassle. I have to check but I'm pretty sure that Modular V can do FM, though being an ancient VA softsynth.

I wanted to make an example with Arturia Modular V. When it came out I was very enthusiastic about this software. But soon after I had to realise that many patches that I knew from my hardware modular system simply didn't work on this software. I hardly ever used Modular V. It looks good, but the sound ...

I'm not a programmer, but from what I've gathered and observed in analog emulations I learned that it is quite difficult to do it in a realistic way. And fairly simple do do it in a much less realistic way (freeware synths, SynthEdit stuff, iPad synths, etc.).

martin_l · Post by **martin_l** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:36 am

Well, it surely can be done. It is all a question on the rate on which you calculated the internal parameters for the oscillators and filters. In my pg8x, for example, I calculate them only every 10 samples. However, this synth is not supposed to do FM or even audio rate modulation of the filter frequency.

It is definitely possible to do audiorate FM on even an ipad2, as e.g. the iMini can do it without problems. Since the iVCS3 is, as far as I can see, strictly monophonic, there should not be an issue, but it seems they need to fix the code and update the parameters on a per-sample basis.

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:17 am

klinik wrote:
including XILS and Reaktor ensembles I guess ...?
Yes, of course! even the early Sync modular emulation (that I helped by the time, eons ago..)

Specially XILS, IMO have nothing of the essence of the original in the sound, It miss the behaviout for the ring modulator, sine shaper, output filters, envelope shaper...

Ring Mod : As I said in the other thread in the instrument forum : I dont know if you have seen the DC checkbox in the Ring Mod section. When its ON ( default) you can use for eample the joystick to ffed the input of the Ring Modulator. And it works wonder ( just made a patch to verify this )

Sine Shaper : Is fixed in the next incoming version

Envelope Shaper : If you refer to the trapezoidal main envelope generator, it has been modelled with an AKS, and respects the EV time, shapes, and looping behaviour etc. ( Xils 3 adds a switchable standard ADSR model for its 3 envelope generators )

Output filters : Are actually,its true, different than the original filters. They are 12db *analog* filters with no delay, so without Shannon effect and spectrum distorsion in the hi range. I'd say It doesnt match the original filter to extend the possibilities, but ymmv here, and its prefectly understandable. Wether these filters are a very significant part of the Aks sound, or much less, can be appreciated by all users who can compare all the different models.

As you weren't specific and did not give details about the differences you mentioned, I cant answer much more atm. If the answers I provided fixed the problems you mentioned, then its nice. If not, well, just feel free to elaborate on this.

Fortunately, Gordon Reid, who made an in depth review of the Xils 3, thinks its the closest possible machine of the original model. The points you mentioned, should they be verified, dont hide the fact that the Xils 3, in its current state, models a lot of modules of the original machine, adds to the pile a 256 sequencer model, AND still offers plethora of additional possibilities, that were not present in the original machine. To the point that Peter Zinoviev, the wizard creator of Synthis, and other marvels, declared that if he were to make these machines nowadays, he would work with Xils.

Well, all this beeing said the Xils 3 V2.0 is in the pipeline. And it not only adress some points mentioned here, like the sine shaper, but will offer much much more.

Wormhelmet · Post by **Wormhelmet** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:57 pm

This synth is nice. I didn't even read much about it before buying. A couple of the reviews at the App Store. This GUI caught my eye and I had to have it. It also sounds great. I have never seen a Synthi before outside of a few pictures, but this is the first pin matrix I've used and it's pretty good. I know soon I'm going to have to upgrade my ipad2. I have more iPad synths I use than PC synths. This one will get a good workout.

Aural Chaos · Post by **Aural Chaos** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:44 pm

In case people haven't read this info on other sites already, the FM response IS a bug, and they are working on a fix.

martin_l · Post by **martin_l** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:20 pm

That is good news. I guess I will buy as soon as the fix comes out.

By the way, has anybody made some direct comparison with the free PC plugins, which are available?

haj · Post by **haj** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:17 pm

Somebody knows how to delete a bank?

Ned Bouhalassa · Post by **Ned Bouhalassa** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:15 pm

Here's little FM from the Synthi in my studio. It would be nice to hear these kinds of tones with the update!

http://nedfx.com/SynthiFMTest.mp3