counterpoint - first species

[Farnaby]

You need more context to decide that - that isn't a false relation. In the key of C (though composers of the time didn't really think of keys) a false relation is likely to occur at a cadence (V - I) where both B flat and B natural precede the cadence on C. This situation would tend to arise in more florid counterpoint, i.e. beyond first species.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Ok guys (and ladies)...In strict two part counterpoint I am coming across a term called 'cross relations' being a no-no. Is this an accurate statement : " A cross relation is when one part plays a note and the other part plays a chromatic half step above or below that note either in the same measure or in a measure immediately proceeding or following ?"

Close.

A cross-relation occurs if a pitch in one voice is followed by a chromatic alteration of that pitch in another voice. And yes, such could occur if you raised the 7th degree in minor to get the lead tone in one voice right after playing minor the 7th in another voice. They are not necessarily unwanted or to be avoided if they are played after one another and serve a harmonical purpose. As long as they do not clash as dissonant by being played simultanously or result in illegal moves. Bach is known for having evolved this type of chromatism a good deal beyond strict counterpoint in which you’d avoid it if you could.

[Farnaby]

But they do occur simultaneously in some Renaissance music, well before Bach.

[shugs]

only 'followed' by ? not followed or preceeded ?

[Farnaby]

They can occur simultaneously or in close proximity

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

But they do occur simultaneously in some Renaissance music, well before Bach.

Which? An example, plz. The wiki says simultanously or close proximity. I disbelief the former. You gotta go back to pagan music to find allowance of the tritonus or minor second as simultanously played intervals. Hardly in church music.

Edit: Found a few examples outside of church music myself, so okay let’s say simultanously goes as well beyond the church. They are well hidden and momentarily tho.

[Farnaby]

Yes it occurs in lots of church music too. Try the motet Ave Verum Corpus by William Byrd for example, or the keyboard pieces Ex More Docti Mistico, and Clarifica Me Pater by Thomas Tallis. Hardly pagan!

[excuse me please]

Afaik the term "counterpoint" was coined by Petrus dictus Palma Ociosa in 1336

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Yes it occurs in lots of church music too. Try the motet Ave Verum Corpus by William Byrd for example, or the keyboard pieces Ex More Docti Mistico, and Clarifica Me Pater by Thomas Tallis. Hardly pagan!

Yeah, I found some too. Not particularly church music, tho, and as said, they are well hidden and momentarily, so that makes them more likely to go unoticed in renaissance music. So, I accept the full def now.

[excuse me please]

The age of Bach is usually referred to as "the Golden Age of Counterpoint" FYI.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

What has that to do with strict counterpoint Fux style as referred to here? Your info is irrelevant and off topic.

[fmr]

The age of Bach is usually referred to as "the Golden Age of Counterpoint" FYI.

referred as such where? When Bach was composing, he was pretty much the only single composer still using that style. Hardly representative for a "Golden Age". The Golden Age of Counterpoint must have been the period from Josquin des Prez up to the death of Palestrina (way before Bach).

[Farnaby]

The Golden Age was definitely the Renaissance - but Bach perhaps represents the culmination and perfection of the imitative polyphonic style.

[Farnaby]

Yes it occurs in lots of church music too. Try the motet Ave Verum Corpus by William Byrd for example, or the keyboard pieces Ex More Docti Mistico, and Clarifica Me Pater by Thomas Tallis. Hardly pagan!

Yeah, I found some too. Not particularly church music, tho, and as said, they are well hidden and momentarily, so that makes them more likely to go unoticed in renaissance music. So, I accept the full def now.

I would take issue with this, as I don't think there was any attempt to hide them or let them pass unnoticed. Quite the reverse really as it was often used to emphasise a moment of heightened sublimity. A little goes a long way however so it was sparingly used.
There is a google article on the 'english cadence' where it is noted that it passed out of fashion - probably because it is rather obvious to the ear.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I would take issue with this, as I don't think there was any attempt to hide them or let them pass unnoticed.

I did not imply they hid them on purpose. But a tritonus blown right into your face is not what these examples I picked up were about, so it made sense that none would bother at that level.

Quite the reverse really as it was often used to emphasise a moment of heightened sublimity. A little goes a long way however so it was sparingly used.

And what are your sources to that statement? One thing that it occurs, another why. Who has made a convincing treatise on this in particular? Few examples do not establish a rule. Who made the comparison?