KVR Audio

mustgroove · Post by **mustgroove** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:27 am

I've been frustrated with drums for some time... Every drum sampler VST I've tried has less than 100% sound quality - their output doesn't phase out to nothing against the same drum sequence done on a simple audio track...

Ideally I'd sequence drums on audio tracks to ensure the sound quality isn't degraded by poor plugin algorithms, but my main sequencer is Ableton which still doesn't have any kind of groove quantise features for audio - not even an ability to snap audio hits to the master swing/shuffle setting...

I've tried battery 2, GURU and LM IV and as far as I can tell, GURU sounds best in the mix, but still doesn't phase out completely against the same drum sequence done on an audio track...

So basically, what is the best drum sampler VST out there in terms of sound quality? Any suggestions would be appreciated, I'm sure there's way more out there than just those 3... Cheers

Madness · Post by **Madness** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:55 am

mustgroove wrote:
I've tried battery 2, GURU and LM IV and as far as I can tell, GURU sounds best in the mix, but still doesn't phase out completely against the same drum sequence done on an audio track...

WTF.... Is this your judge of quality?

Seriously if you can tell the difference in quality using your "EARS" then you are tripping on acid or something.

Quit stuffing around posting dumb questions and purchase your sampler and get on with making music.

Many, many, Pro, signed acts make tracks using Battery and don't seem to have issues with sound quality.

GURU has the tightest timing around but is less flexible in the ENV, LFO, MOD department than Battery 2, or your straight up normal sampler would suffice, Kontakt, ShortCircut., etc., etc.,

Lagrange · Post by **Lagrange** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:13 am

Whoa now thats putting it to em.. Not even a retort.. I nuked this popcorn for nothin?

stk · Post by **stk** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:16 am

awesome

Quit stuffing around posting dumb questions ..... and get on with making music.

That should be posted at the top of every damn website

Wolfgang K · Post by **Wolfgang K** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:30 am

stk wrote: awesome
Quit stuffing around posting dumb questions ..... and get on with making music.
That should be posted at the top of every damn website

Ok, for me personally Battery is the best one but it's ok if other guess that Guru etc. is better. Mate, if you have problems with vst take a look at ebay, buy a 19'' module from Alesis/Novation etc. for a few $$ and try it. If you think you'll have better results or an easier workflow we'll get on talking.

mustgroove · Post by **mustgroove** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:51 am

Madness - my productivity's never been affected by the search for better quality plugins, the two things are completely unrelated... figuring out what sounds best makes our mixes better... maybe you'd prefer to keep mixing in Reason?

This is a discussion about plugins dude, not personalities, but someone's always gotta spoil it with bullshit huh...

if a drum sampler instrument can't phase to nothing against the same thing being played back on an audio channel, then the plugin's doing something destructive at some point... this whole thing would be a moot point if Ableton were able to groove quantise audio, but it can't, so the only way to get drums to follow the project swing amount in Ableton is to use a sampler, so I'd like to figure out which one is the cleanest and least destructive...

Richard Lichten · Post by **Richard Lichten** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:04 am

You could use hardware. 100 $ give you an excellent litle hardware sampler on Ebay these days, for example, an Akai s2000, these are supposed to sound better.

Majken · Post by **Majken** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:46 am

If a plugin doesn't phase out completely against a downmixed track of the same beat:
a. The drumsampler has free runnin modulation on drumsamples
b. The drumsampler has humanize functions that slightly shift velocity and timing
c. The host doesn't have delay compensation or isn't sample accurate in downmixing
d. Does it really matter if the drumbeat is the same sample by sample?
e. And how would that have anything with the audio quality to do anyway?

/Majken

bjarnenorheim · Post by **bjarnenorheim** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:20 pm

Majken wrote:If a plugin doesn't phase out completely against a downmixed track of the same beat:
a. The drumsampler has free runnin modulation on drumsamples
b. The drumsampler has humanize functions that slightly shift velocity and timing
c. The host doesn't have delay compensation or isn't sample accurate in downmixing
d. Does it really matter if the drumbeat is the same sample by sample?
e. And how would that have anything with the audio quality to do anyway?

/Majken

which host isnt sample accurate in downmixing?

contrast · Post by **contrast** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:21 pm

IIRC all VSTs are a few samples late in SX. Maybe it's different in 4 or even 3, last time I checked was in 2 I think.

Actually that prompted me to check again and it's allright in 3, maybe it was just in 2 or maybe it was the plugin, or maybe I'm thinking of a different host. Or maybe I'm just on crack this morning.

As for the original post, the fact that it doesn't cancel doesn't neccessarily indicate anything, there are about a million reasons that could be the case. For example the volumes might be slightly different (and that would be my first guess in this case).

Majken · Post by **Majken** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:35 pm

Contrast: Yes, that's what I meant. The entire mix might be delayed by a sample or two meaning it won't cancel out. It might also be delayed depending on the plugins internal delay meaning the amount could different depending on what plugins are used.

And it was just a suggestion of what could posibly cause something to not cancel out completely. But again, cancelling out or not doesn't actually say anything about soundquality.

/Majken

Rock Hardbuns · Post by **Rock Hardbuns** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:15 pm

mustgroove > by "the same thing" you are refering to a rendering from the synth right? Otherwise there are way too many variables that could play a part.
But assuming that you are talking about rendering something and then playing both synth and rendered track they obviously wont cancel out unless you invert one of them. After that my best guess is quantize/humanize functions that have random elements, and LFOs like majken has mentioned.

Lagrange · Post by **Lagrange** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:56 pm

mustgroove wrote:This is a discussion about plugins dude, not personalities, but someone's always gotta spoil it with bullshit huh...

ewww burnn burrnn.. Thats cooollld.. your messed him yo!

L

Madness · Post by **Madness** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:54 am

mustgroove wrote:
If a drum sampler instrument can't phase to nothing against the same thing being played back on an audio channel, then the plugin's doing something destructive at some point...

Seriously, who put this nonsense in your head, bring them too me and I will slap them around a bit and get them back on stage hand duties and tell 'em to stop telling fibs...It won't sound any better or any worse...

Have you ever added Distortion to your drum mix? Yes I thought so, you love the sound of rough drums and bringing out the harmonics of your pristine drum mixes just like any decent sound engineer. Perhaps you've heard of peeps recording drums through old desks and degraded equipment, or a S950 sampler with crusty 10bit convertors. Quality is SUBJECTIVE and HEARD not determined by some stupid Cancelation test... Tell me you don't wan't to put electronic drum samples in your VST? BECAUSE THEY ARE ALLREADY DEGRADED AND DISTORTED AND FAR FROM PRISTINE

GURU is the only VST which is sample accurate, and Fruty Loops, all the other hosts are using 960ppqn MIDI resolution, you will experience inconsistencies. But, that only dictates TIGHTNESS.

Drum VST's do "ABSOFUCKNLUTELY NOTHING" to sound quality, its all digital, its all internal there is no sound degredation at all.

If you REALLY REALLY wan't smooth lush drum sound, go check out FXPansion BFD is sounds Smooth like SEX

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:06 pm

Madness wrote: GURU is the only VST which is sample accurate, and Fruty Loops, all the other hosts are using 960ppqn MIDI resolution, you will experience inconsistencies. But, that only dictates TIGHTNESS.

WTF?

Are we in "nonsense corner" or something like that?
ALL proper hosts will play back virtual insruments with sample accuracy (unless something's broken) - and it's got *zilch* to do with MIDI resolution.
MIDI resolution is about how much you can finetune timings, but in case you place a MIDI note on beat 1, triggering a sample in whatever (non-broken!) sampler, it will just sound *exactly* the same as the same sample placed on an audio track at beat 1 in a (non-broken!) sequencer.

And having done some intensive tests on the matter in the past, yes, sometimes either hosts or instruments seemed to be "broken" indeed, but whenever they weren't, my results have been holding up in a "nulling" (phase cancellation) test just fine.

But then, even if your 960ppqn comment was nonsense, I totally agree to the rest of what you said.

The best-sounding plugin drum sampler