Logic 8 Beta Details (or rather rumors, speculation, etc.)

[spaceman]

regarding the audio engine.. the only problem I have ever encountered with that is that certain plugins (always the same ones) can sometimes -on rare occasions- go silent. Usually I just removed them from the track and put them back in and all is well.

I don't know what else would merit calling it flaky? Maybe I'm just lucky or I don't go deep enough to encounter some other bugs.

[topaz]

Hi Sascha

yes, the render bug is bad, thats one thing I found but I actually prefer to render out the audio and do my final video rendering in Final Cut Pro.

The flaky audio engine has never effected me so far using Motu Ultralite 10.48 Logic 7.23.

I have never seen this overload message.

Bugs in Logic 7:

Can someone please post a list of these nasty bugs in 7.23 (not a link to some forum thread) so I can at least avoid them, so far I have yet to tun into any.

I only have a german list, but it's embedded in a forum.

But, one bug that might occur in your film project (should you want to render out a test movie or so): LogicPro on Intel-Macs can't render audio into movie files.

How such a major bug slipped their testing (or alternatively, how they could even release it with such a showstopper) is completely beyond me.

There's several others but they might not be of interest for what you do (such as various bugs in the EXS editor), plus there's quite some things that have been changed to the worse (for instance, the linked plugin windows).

My biggest gripe is the uber-flaky audio engine on IntelMacs and the completely nonsensical overload messages. Even the most longsdtanding Mac and Logic lovers (some true system experts among them as well), using top notch hardware, are experiencing them.

Fact is: If you buy a new Logic system, you can't buy a reliable combination. The flakiness of the audio engine on IntelMacs is proveable.
That's just disgusting.

[Sascha Franck]

I've actually been meaning to ask around, is there really a big difference between Intel Macs and the old G4 / G5s in that respect?

Yes, Logic is running fairly more stable on PPCs.

And to those without problems: Good for you. But in general, Logics audio engine *is* flaky.
I have just been recording a guitar track, the only thing in use was a stereo track and GAP on the to-be-recorded track. Logic decided to stop during recording.
And no, this is not due to my audio hardware, I experienced it with a number of soundcards. And well, the first thing I've seen at Musikmesse on Apogees booth was a stopped Logic, showing some "Error to synchronize Audio and MIDI" message. All that on a song barely using more than 30% horsepower.
These things also happen in Apple-only scenarios, using the onboard soundcard and nothing like Logics own plugins.

[z15]

And to those without problems: Good for you. But in general, Logics audio engine *is* flaky.
I have just been recording a guitar track, the only thing in use was a stereo track and GAP on the to-be-recorded track. Logic decided to stop during recording.
And no, this is not due to my audio hardware, I experienced it with a number of soundcards. And well, the first thing I've seen at Musikmesse on Apogees booth was a stopped Logic, showing some "Error to synchronize Audio and MIDI" message. All that on a song barely using more than 30% horsepower.
These things also happen in Apple-only scenarios, using the onboard soundcard and nothing like Logics own plugins.

Okay, now that you mention about it, I have had similar problem once or twice Intel + V7 I think, Logic putting up overload message and stopping recording for no apparent reason. Just wondered "what the hell" and forgot about it since next time worked well. It's true that it doesn't really raise trust in using Logic for something critical...

[ghosttrax]

I also get this. It seems to occur when I'm starting to play back through a plugin that I haven't played back for a while or when I first use it when opening a project. It's sort of like it's gone to sleep and is then over powering the CPU when I wake it up.

[Sascha Franck]

[
It's true that it doesn't really raise trust in using Logic for something critical...

And that's exactly my point. Yes, you can get a lot of work done with Logic. It's very efficient, too. But it's not reliable for certain critical tasks when reliability is a key issue.
Let's assume you're multitracking a drummer. Would you really like to tell him something like "sorry, got an overload message" while he was just performing the best take ever? An overload mesage that might happen in a situation even the most mediocre office machine could handle with ease (I mean, recording up to 20 simultaneous tracks in, say, 44.1/24 is not an issue for *any* machine anymore)?
Even worse if you were recording some live act. No way to repeat the performance.

IMO, order of stability for the last Logic versions:
1) Logic 5.5.1 for Windows. Assuming you don't use questionable plugins and have proper audio hardware, you can't break that system. I've been recording, mixing and monitoring a live act with it, all at 64 samples buffersize. Worked a treat. And yes, even Emagic admitted that the Windows version was running better than the Mac version back then.
2) Logic 6(whateverthelastversionwas) for OSX on Dual G5s. Almost as stable as 5.5.1/Win.
3) Logic 7 on PPCs. Relatively stable, but people are experiencing unreasoned overload messages as well.
4) Logic 7 on Intel Macs. Even the most obsessive Mac/Logic users have to admit that these dreaded overload messages are happening.

And well, isn't it quite a great achievement that by now, the only Logic systems you can buy new are the most flaky ones since over 5 years?
And well, additionally keeping the AU fiasco (it's still nothing else but a fiasco, no matter how you put it) in mind, additionally keeping the less than shiny CoreAudio performance (proper ASIO driven cards still offer lower latencies under Windows) in mind, where's all the great benefits for us Logic users in Apple having f**ked up Emagic?
A less stable program, seriously lacking behind the competition in many aspects, running only on rather expensive machines, no proper freeware plugins available and all that - yeah, sure, just what the doctor ordered.

Sometimes being a Logic afficionado is getting pretty tough...

[Sascha Franck]

I also get this. It seems to occur when I'm starting to play back through a plugin that I haven't played back for a while or when I first use it when opening a project. It's sort of like it's gone to sleep and is then over powering the CPU when I wake it up.

Sure - wellknown. The workaround usually has been to start your song one or two times at rather busy passages.
But then, as said, I just had the overload message when recording ONE track with ONE further track playing back. There's been exactly ONE plugin used. And I recorded a bunch of other takes before without problems.
I also had this happening when playing something in cycle, with everything loaded being actively playing back something. 20 cycles might play well and on cycle #21 all of a sudden Logic stops.

[z15]

Let's assume you're multitracking a drummer. Would you really like to tell him something like "sorry, got an overload message" while he was just performing the best take ever? An overload mesage that might happen in a situation even the most mediocre office machine could handle with ease (I mean, recording up to 20 simultaneous tracks in, say, 44.1/24 is not an issue for *any* machine anymore)?
Even worse if you were recording some live act. No way to repeat the performance.

Yeah, that's basically why I've never thought of using Logic for any critical or live recording stuff, it rocks as a composition / musicmaking platform for me but I've had those random dropouts on my previous Logic setups (even PPC) with just one or two track recording or like 30-40% CPU utilization when playing and it scares me a bit. That's basically why I do multitrack recording with either Live or Metric Halo's Console software (rock solid) in the very rare cases I need to (I'm more of an electronic musician) and use Logic more for composing and sound design stuff.

It IS kind of ridiculous that a $1k top of the line DAW software isn't completely reliable for recording a few audio tracks... I guess why I'm not complaining is just that I have the software to do it anyway, and most of the things I do aren't really critical in that sense.

[z15]

I also get this. It seems to occur when I'm starting to play back through a plugin that I haven't played back for a while or when I first use it when opening a project. It's sort of like it's gone to sleep and is then over powering the CPU when I wake it up.

Sure - wellknown. The workaround usually has been to start your song one or two times at rather busy passages.

Yeah, this is the problem I run into more often myself. It feels like Logic has some kind of intelligent CPU saving feature (automatic bypass / disable of plugins?) that doesn't really work so well and causes overloads when a few plugins are enabled at the same time... Because of that and because Logic IS really CPU efficient for me.

[beej]

IMO, order of stability for the last Logic versions:
1) Logic 5.5.1 for Windows. Assuming you don't use questionable plugins and have proper audio hardware, you can't break that system. I've been recording, mixing and monitoring a live act with it, all at 64 samples buffersize. Worked a treat. And yes, even Emagic admitted that the Windows version was running better than the Mac version back then.
2) Logic 6(whateverthelastversionwas) for OSX on Dual G5s. Almost as stable as 5.5.1/Win.
3) Logic 7 on PPCs. Relatively stable, but people are experiencing unreasoned overload messages as well.
4) Logic 7 on Intel Macs. Even the most obsessive Mac/Logic users have to admit that these dreaded overload messages are happening.

While I'm not negating your experiences at all, it's worth pointing out that one person's experience does not necessarily make a general fact.

The were many ways in which 5.5.1 was flaky, and I have had similar song-related audio overload messages to ones I've had on Mac PPC L7. There's some flakyness inherent in the audio engine which can result in odd things - CPU performance spiking way up at odd points in the song for no particular reason, playback stopping when it hits a new region until you "warm up" Logic by playing through the song a few times - these things have always been there (and are complicated by OS/driver issues I'm sure).

Now, from what I have read it does seem that there are definitely Intel-related bugs in 7.2 that aren't there on the PPC side.

But my L7 system is way more stable than my PC system ever was, so to say L7 Mac is inherently a far worse product than Logic 5 PC in terms of stability is not necessarily accurate. That may be your opinion borne out by your experiences and your research, but mine over here doesn't necessary add up to the same conclusion...

(And of course, that doesn't make either of us right or wrong

[Sascha Franck]

While I'm not negating your experiences at all, it's worth pointing out that one person's experience does not necessarily make a general fact.

Well, I have just more or less bundled my own and other experiences. But...

The were many ways in which 5.5.1 was flaky, and I have had similar song-related audio overload messages to ones I've had on Mac PPC L7. There's some flakyness inherent in the audio engine which can result in odd things - CPU performance spiking way up at odd points in the song for no particular reason, playback stopping when it hits a new region until you "warm up" Logic by playing through the song a few times - these things have always been there (and are complicated by OS/driver issues I'm sure).

I totally agree that these issues have been existing almost all the time, but, at least under Windows, using 5.5.1, it was possible to build a truly rock stable system. Yes, there's been the occasional overload messages, but I always *knew* when I was sort of going into a direction that would make overloads more likely.
What I'm saying is: I *never ever*, not even once, had a single overload message causing Logic to stop during multi-tracking when nothing else but a few EQs, reverbs and the likes were running.
And by now I had those very overload messages a few times when only recording on a single track (and that's not on one of those evil, unreliable Windows boxes...).
I would still go out and record, mix and monitor a live act any day, using my PC laptop and a Hammerfall - but I would never even remotely think about doing so with my Macbook.
The same goes for any sort of tracking session. I'd do the tracking on the PC and transfer things to the Mac for further tweaking. Heck, I'd even run Logic 5.5.1 via Bootcamp (seems quite stable) and do the recording there instead of using 7.2.3.

Thing is, while Logic is running extremely stable these days (no crashes unless I'm betatesting some stuff or using otherwise not so stable plugins), this audio engine unreliability is the most serious thing I've ever been running into during my "sequencing life".
Take Cubase as an example. Version SX 3 is way more likely to crash on my Windows machines when doing some mad tweakings and the likes. But would it ever let me down when performing something such as simple as recording a bunch of audio tracks? No, it wouldn't. Never ever.
I'm almost sure the same can be said for a lot of other sequencers. From all the big ones, only Logic doesn't seem to be able to do a reliable recording business. And after all, that's *the* core function of a sequencer.
And it really doesn't matter whether there's some days without a single overload message. All that matters is that it's likely (to whatever percentage) that an overload message can and *will* happen in the most unfortunate moment (such as during some live recording). You simply can't trust Logic. You can however trust other sequencers, even if they are much more likely to crash in whatever further steps of the production. But those crashes often don't destroy much, whereas a sequencer not finishing a live recording is doing destructive, permanent harm.

Now, from what I have read it does seem that there are definitely Intel-related bugs in 7.2 that aren't there on the PPC side.

Yes, defenitely. For instance the video rendering bug.

But my L7 system is way more stable than my PC system ever was, so to say L7 Mac is inherently a far worse product than Logic 5 PC in terms of stability is not necessarily accurate.

My PC version is crashing more often (most likely due to bad plugins or to bad plugin compatibility). But as said, as long as I'm not working with critical things, it's running rock solid. And, unlike with L7, I am actually able to sort those critical things out, whereas the overload messages are coming completely out of the blue.

[beej]

Also, overload messages are possibly also related to driver/audio hardware issues as well.

You are dead right though, (whatever is causing the issue), that a recording system that you can't trust to record without stopping is unnacceptable.

But for me, when recording my vocals, I stick Logic in cycle record mode and sing through, rehearse, arrange and perform my vocals while in record all the time. Logic never drops out of record for me, it's always been reliable (but of course, that's only recording a track or two at a time, so it's not really a stress test). This is PPC though.

I must admit, I *want* to go MacIntel, but I'm still waiting - I think realistically I'm waiting for the picture to become clearer, regarding Logic 8, and Leopard, and reports on compatibility, issues, performance and general feedback.

We (especially Logic Intel users) are in a sort of pre-nirvana purgatory which is hell for some people

The *promise* is there that things will soon be *awesome* but we... just... can't... quite... get there... yet...

[Sascha Franck]

But for me, when recording my vocals, I stick Logic in cycle record mode and sing through, rehearse, arrange and perform my vocals while in record all the time. Logic never drops out of record for me, it's always been reliable (but of course, that's only recording a track or two at a time, so it's not really a stress test). This is PPC though.

Exactly my experience under 5.5.1/PC and 6/7/OSX/PPC. Not anymore with the Macbook.
Which is a shame, really.

[derek]

And well, isn't it quite a great achievement that by now, the only Logic systems you can buy new are the most flaky ones since over 5 years?

thats because of the super integrated nature of logic regarding the OS it runs on ;-)

btw i find it quite shocking that youd call that old logic pc thing the most stable emagic release ever. ive used that version quite a bit and if that was the best stability logic ever archived, OMG. cant argue with it though, both 6.x and of course the dreaded 7.x releases were even worse bitches whenever i came near them. man, the hours of my life that software wasted...

[Sascha Franck]

thats because of the super integrated nature of logic regarding the OS it runs on

Yeah, don't tell me...

btw i find it quite shocking that youd call that old logic pc thing the most stable emagic release ever. ive used that version quite a bit and if that was the best stability logic ever archived, OMG.

Well, it obviously depended a lot on the plugins and (partially the audio hardware) you were using, but once that's sorted, it runs like a charme. Admittedly, plugin compatibility is really lousy, but well, it got better and better at that time and I'm sure that a few more point-releases would've fixed the issues almost entirely... but we all know what happened at that time.
At least it delivered a rock solid core functionality, I never had a single overload message while doing something as recording a bunch of audiotracks. This is not the case anymore with IntelMacs, so for anybody into heavy audio recording, Logic on an Intel Mac is nothing else but a fiasco.

As said before, if Apple doesn't fix these major issues once and forever with the next incarnation of Logic, they can just kiss my butt. After all, Cubase, Reaper and Samplitude aren't unattractive alternatives and they are actually improving. Plus they're running on machines that don't force you to pay an arm and a leg should something be broken.