KVR Audio

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:21 pm

Hello Sir Heckmann !

I'd be glad to know two things :

1)-First if you would be interested to debate of the interest of a few ideas (i already submitted some of them last year on kvr with more or less success) concerning possible innovatve aspects on synth/samplers/effects that to my taste may have a relative sense to be, perhaps, released

2)-I have a self-made personnal collection of sampler's patches ( Akai s2000 - EXS24 in logic, and if needed NN-XT in reason or the DS404 muon's freeware ) that i like to get a first professionnal feedback with, maybe this isn't the more appropriate door to look at, by i'd like to have you critical opinion on my work as sound designer.
If yes i may send a CD by post with a brief ,personnal comment on each types of patches

If you prefer to have a few explanations before i'll be here

cheers

P.S....i may also associate, if you would be interested ,some compositions and improvisation in two very distinct style of music (one of them is my work, the other a friend of mine to who i gave those sounds "to test" and i made the work of mastering to his composition !)
This would make at least 3 CD's (could be less !)

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:25 pm

I forgot to precise : the two musics i told you are intended to be demonstrative of TWO distinct uses in situation of these patches

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:57 pm

Krakatau wrote:Hello Sir Heckmann !

I'd be glad to know two things :

1)-First if you would be interested to debate of the interest of a few ideas (i already submitted some of them last year on kvr with more or less success) concerning possible innovatve aspects on synth/samplers/effects that to my taste may have a relative sense to be, perhaps, released

yes, we can do that.

but I'm currently veeeery busy as you can imagine...

... I could join that discussion every now and then, no prob!

Krakatau wrote: 2)-I have a self-made personnal collection of sampler's patches ( Akai s2000 - EXS24 in logic, and if needed NN-XT in reason or the DS404 muon's freeware ) that i like to get a first professionnal feedback with, maybe this isn't the more appropriate door to look at, by i'd like to have you critical opinion on my work as sound designer.
If yes i may send a CD by post with a brief ,personnal comment on each types of patches

Well, hehe... I'm currently not much into samples and stuff... I have yet to send my EXS cds back to Emagic for my XSKey authorization...

And I guess you should meet with a pro musician. I'm the least person to know about quality. My audio monitoring is crap (home stereo), it's just good enough to let me tweak filters long enough until they sound, well, as they do.

However, there are plans for a future sample-based virtual instrument (not a playback device, but something else). Well... that'll be next year... somewhen...

Krakatau wrote: P.S....i may also associate, if you would be interested ,some compositions and improvisation in two very distinct style of music (one of them is my work, the other a friend of mine to who i gave those sounds "to test" and i made the work of mastering to his composition !)
This would make at least 3 CD's (could be less !)

Hehe... oki... I guess you overestimate my musical professionality

- I'd love to listen to that stuff, but I wouldn't recommend to give anything on my feedback.

Cheers,

Urs

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 5:10 pm

Well honestly, i had in mind to find a eventual collaboration on a sampler or something sample-based

Maybe just have a glance a this idea :

I was thinking of a possibility of the use during playback (on host sequencer) of note-on datas locked to a position inside a sample anywhere from it beginning to it end ( supposing in this case a patch based on a single sample played in polyphony )

The main interest would be the easy reconstitution inside a composition at work of an acoustic instrument, like a piano, recorded backward on a tape

The other one (still one mono-sample based patch) would to synchronise a percussive impact and at the meantime to preserve some of the acoustic aspect of the sound right before the impact. You know that it would be necessary to cut it off in usual real-time use

If you have the interest theses links are going to the original threads (on topic) from spring 2002 on this forum

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

and

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

...and still related to sampler (or vsti in general)

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I'll be very interested in your opinion ...

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:56 am

Hi Krakatau,

sorry, it took some time to read all this stuff during free moments...

Let's discuss things step by step (or I'll get a mental dead lock)...

So, if I understand you right, you need a device that lets you position a sample not by its actual start but by a "mark" within the sample. - This way you want to include a short time _before_ the actual tone begins. An example would be the first blow of a flute player, which happens shortly before the actual tone develops.

I agree, I have adores this effect for years now. When making music, I spend a lot of time with short, "rising" sounds, which I place before some notes, i.e. snare rolls, bass notes etc. - It's a painful job, but it's worth it.

I can see some techniques to achieve this:

1) introduce a fake plugin latency where the "before" part is played back during pre-delay time

2) build an internal quantization scheme, so that the note starts after 1/16th for instance, where the before-time is played back right in time before the end of that 16th.

these techniques make live play impossible, because of the latency they introduce.

3) play back samples as normal, beginning with the offset sample start. - Then, if you have stuff recorded (MIDI) within your DAW, the plugin has a button that analyses the incoming notes and generates a MIDI file that you paste to that track in addition to the recorded notes. - If the recorded notes are on Midi channel 1, the added notes would be on channel 2. On channel 2, the plugin would play the before-parts of the samples. Hence you'd have a couple of additional notes in your track that actually align _before_ your original note in time.

This way, you'd have viable live play (no extra latency), and quite a convenient way to position the pre-transients (is that a good word for it?).

What do you think?

Cheers,

Urs

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:03 am

Hellu Urs

It's my time maybe to apologise about the delay, i REALLY agree about step by step discussion (as well as the danger of mental dead lock or some kind of horrible headeache...both of us aren't originally english talking, aren't we ?)

As much as could get of your idea/experience, (i'm afraid i'm in trouble to get point 3 !!!) i can say is that i wasn't thinking of AN ARTICULATION OF SAMPLES...(though we understand ourselves about the "mark" within a sample)

1) should be first recorded in your sequence as usual "note-on" MIDI datas what will be exact position on where the marks of each samples will be locked (...using for example, a piano patch)

2) Create a copy of this patch and reverse all samples (...but using exactly the same datas, this point excepted )

3)Then, if you want to re-create a "backward-like" perfoming instrument

(like a piano previously recorded on a tape or K7 running backward, then the K7 returned again...quite easy job with 4 track recorders !)

...the original "note-ons"...the actual mark...would better define THE SAMPLE'S END during playback, instead of sample's start...

( in case, of course that the work of sample's editing has been done properly and the signal's attack was exactly corresponding to the sample's start )

4) If the VST or AU specs would allow it : the host may then calculate all the new, REAL sample's starts, knowing

-The exact number of samples in your patch

-The exact allocations of these samples in your patch (hi-lo tessiture and velocity limits, etc...)

-The exact lengh of each samples... and their tranpositions on each recorded key if needed (it means then, the new, exact lengh of each transposed samples )

...at least all the significant details (datas) of the patch's content

-PLUS, of course, the exact position of the marks inside each samples in use

IF, this technique of sample manipulation could be realised, it could find another use, similar to the one use tried to describe to my lazy brain (what a shame !) by locking the sample (of a usual forward-going percussive or staccato-like signal ) on a main signal's impact (like a tambourine as described on one of the early post of last year) that could be then played in any sample's speed during playback without audible dyssynchronisation at lowest speed (...of sampler's playback during sequencer's playback...to point everything clearly !)

Of course all the features i've been thinking of yet are depending on the quality of communication between a plug-in and his host, i was hoping on a beast like the exs24, (owning logic platinum) or any plug-in in a proprietary format inside his own host, but it seems that it's not a dude like me than can hope for a dialog with one of these big factory in any way

I just hoped that you, as an independant developper, mostly specialised on audio unit (because it seems that vst specs are a bit limited...but someone may perhaps correct me !), can both evaluate the intertest as musician and composer at one hand, and the developping aspects on the other hand (by my side i do what i can to anticipate as realistically as possible what it should be, by extrapolation of how the user interfaces are generaly reacting an appears to me...no other notions !)
...i'm persuaded of their artistic interest, but i'm afraid of appeiring a bit too pretentious !

SO DON'T BOTHER TOO MUCH , JUST TAKE YOUR TIME !!!

cheers

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:32 pm

Hiya,

hehe, saw your post in the dev forum...

... sorry to be so silent recently... release deadline is approaching...

... maybe we should move this to the new dev forum?

Cheers,

Urs

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:38 am

-I would feel honoured !

,...maybe should we ask...THE CHIEF OF THE CHIEVES ?

Ooo dear lord BEN (kvr)

Can't you by your infinite power move this humble (!!!) thread to this wonderful, brand new and more appropriate part of this holy forum ?

We're all your (f**king) humble servant !

Post by **Ben [KVR]** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:40 am

It is so.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:51 am

Thanks

Urs

To Urs