Vintage is overrated. Lesson learned(rant)

[living sounds]

Is vintage all we have?

Obviously "vintage" in that context is a marketing strategy.

[v1o]

I have a JX-8P that's seen better days. All the sound functions work, but the screen doesn't, and it's been painted, presumably to cover up the battering it took during its life.

I doubt it's the screen and paintjob affecting the sound.

He means the aging and maturing of the components is what makes it sound phat

[himalaya]

Is vintage all we have?

Not at all. And should any KVR member be reminded of the forward thinking synths we have at our disposal ? Just a few ones from the top of my head:

Alchemy
Krishna
Absynth
Reactor
Tassman (with its PM stuff)
Zebra
Modelonia
Virsyn stuff
Helix
Cronox
Octopus
Symptohm Melohman
Krakli's stuff
Xoxox's stuff
AAS String Studio
String Theory
Doppelmangler
MetaSynth

to name but a few.

So, anyone who is tired of having to read and hear about 'analogue' emulations, VA this or that, is invited to spend the rest of his/her life with the above, as even one lifetime will not be enough to fully explore that.

Looking for hardware ? Here:
Kurzweil synths with VAST synthesis
Alesis Fusion (discontinued)
Korg with its Karma and physical modeling
Clavia Modular (discontinued)
Clavia Wave
DSI Evolver
Waldorf Bloefeld
Access Virus Ti
etc...


The other side of the coin is, people still look to subtractive synthesis as offered by analogue (whether it is of the 'vintage' variety or newly designed and built). Hence, the continuous interest by developers.

Perhaps the sound of 'subtractive' (analogue) synthesis has entered its 'classic' phase where it is like the sound of piano ie: it has existed for several hundred years and has become a mainstay instrument.

So, is this the explanation for people's lust for vintage analogue or is it all due to the dance music scene reinventing a few chosen sounds, each time lowering the low pass filter cutoff and adding a 5th ?

[zerocrossing]

So, is this the explanation for people's lust for vintage analogue or is it all due to the dance music scene reinventing a few chosen sounds, each time lowering the low pass filter cutoff and adding a 5th ?

I think a large part of it is "good ol' daysism" aka nostalgia. I'm not saying there isn't something about a good piece of hardware that adds a flavor that isn't found in software, but I really think that dusty old relic going for more than $3000 on ebay is better spent on a modern analog. Things like patch memory, full MIDI implementations, reliability and availability will always win for me. Reminds me of that article someone posted here a while ago. It was about Moby and his vintage drum machine collection. My favorite part was where he basically says, "I sample them and then put them on this shelf." At that point it's not about owning instruments it's about collecting antiques. That's fine, but call it what it is. I'd go for a Voyager if I had the money and space, but I don't think I'd ever buy a minimoog for any reason.

[living sounds]

I think a large part of it is "good ol' daysism" aka nostalgia. I'm not saying there isn't something about a good piece of hardware that adds a flavor that isn't found in software, but I really think that dusty old relic going for more than $3000 on ebay is better spent on a modern analog. Things like patch memory, full MIDI implementations, reliability and availability will always win for me. Reminds me of that article someone posted here a while ago. It was about Moby and his vintage drum machine collection. My favorite part was where he basically says, "I sample them and then put them on this shelf." At that point it's not about owning instruments it's about collecting antiques. That's fine, but call it what it is. I'd go for a Voyager if I had the money and space, but I don't think I'd ever buy a minimoog for any reason.

I can only speak for myself here, and for me it's got nothing to do with nostalgia, but with what sounds better, works better in a mix and is more fun to play. That's not a flavour thing. Tried everything else first, too.

As for reliablitiy, you'll probably have a much harder time repairing one of the modern, SMT-based synths than we have know repairing many old analog synths. It's not even clear how long these parts actually last. My vintage stuff works all perfectly, it was made to last and to be repaired. There are always problematic units (I wouldn't buy a CS80 if I had the money and space for it), but if you buy carefully it's really problem-free. My Polaris has patch memory and full MIDI implimentation, too, and it's from 83.

As for Moby, the guy's a collector, he's got several units of the same drum machine in many cases. I saw that video, too, all that great gear, and then he records it through some sub-par Motu converters. He's obviously made a lot of money with his music though.

[bluedad]

My Polaris has patch memory and full MIDI implimentation, too, and it's from 83.

how have you managed to avoid the membrane problem that has plagued that model?
mine stands useless in the closet...

[zerocrossing]

I saw that video, too, all that great gear, and then he records it through some sub-par Motu converters. He's obviously made a lot of money with his music though.

What's wrong with MOTU converters? I've got an 828 that sounds good. I spent a little time a/b testing similar units in that range when I bought it and I didn't find any to stand out as being better and a few were a lot more expensive. I hate Moby's music but at least it sounds good. My only gripe with him is he seems to think one interesting idea makes a whole track.

Anyway, you could probably end this debate by posting an actual sample of your music made with your great sounding analog gear, but you won't so I guess your music is so special sounding that only you get to hear it.

If an analog synth filter self resonates in Living Sounds' studio, does it make a sound.

[living sounds]

how have you managed to avoid the membrane problem that has plagued that model?
mine stands useless in the closet...

Bought it last year in good shape, it simply has zero problems with the membranes. Maybe only a portion of the synths, a specific production run or whatever, was affected. You can still repair it, there's a lot of documentation on the web, it's really worth it, I think.

[living sounds]

What's wrong with MOTU converters? I've got an 828 that sounds good. I spent a little time a/b testing similar units in that range when I bought it and I didn't find any to stand out as being better and a few were a lot more expensive. I hate Moby's music but at least it sounds good. My only gripe with him is he seems to think one interesting idea makes a whole track.

Anyway, you could probably end this debate by posting an actual sample of your music made with your great sounding analog gear, but you won't so I guess your music is so special sounding that only you get to hear it.

If an analog synth filter self resonates in Living Sounds' studio, does it make a sound.

Motu is OK in their price range, but I'd expect an artist of his fame with all the analog equipment to invest a little more in better sounding converters. Sound quality wise Moby isn't really cutting edge IMO. Like some of his music though, like this track (fairly new but very retro):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETmvSj2PUuQ

Posting my own stuff isn't likely to end any debate, but anyway, here's a track I made like two weeks ago (checking out the Sync-Lock, I think). I've upgraded the console some more since, lot's more clarity now, but this shows quite well what half an hour of jamming (and then simply muting midi tracks on and off in real time) sounds like. Never mind the glitches, the external converter wasn't synced properly (not too audible though). And yes, it sounds like a porn soundtrack.

[Beno.]

1. Characterized by excellence, maturity, and enduring appeal; classic.

2. Old or outmoded.

both are definitions of Vintage

along with loads of wine related stuff

a couple of VST synths are covered by 1. but most fall in to the category of 2.

Analog on the other hand is just imperfection (digitally speaking )

Ben

[v1o]

Analogue synths are over-rated. Modern synths are far better instruments.


Can an analogue synth sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq3gVIfy ... r_embedded

Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvQs4Nq ... r_embedded

[living sounds]

Analogue synths are over-rated. Modern synths are far better instruments.


Can an analogue synth sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq3gVIfy ... r_embedded

Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvQs4Nq ... r_embedded

You're not serious, are you?

[paladium]

I have a JX-8P that's seen better days. All the sound functions work, but the screen doesn't, and it's been painted, presumably to cover up the battering it took during its life.

I doubt it's the screen and paintjob affecting the sound.

Obviously not. What I meant was that if the synths is basically worn out, maybe it really does make the sound fatter in some way.

Other than old caps drying what else "wears" out in an old synth circuitry wise? We're not talking about vacuum tubes here.

The jx8p was more than 50 percent digital componentwise so degradation
is unlikely to improve things , roland however issued several vca output stage revisions during its production run (like the 106 and jx10/mks70) so that might account for slight differences in same model, the difference between 2 same model discrete synths can be massive however.

[zerocrossing]

I hate Moby's music but at least it sounds good. My only gripe with him is he seems to think one interesting idea makes a whole track.

Anyway, you could probably end this debate by posting an actual sample of your music made with your great sounding analog gear, but you won't so I guess your music is so special sounding that only you get to hear it.

If an analog synth filter self resonates in Living Sounds' studio, does it make a sound.

Sound quality wise Moby isn't really cutting edge IMO. Like some of his music though, like this track (fairly new but very retro):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETmvSj2PUuQ

Posting my own stuff isn't likely to end any debate, but anyway, here's a track I made like two weeks ago (checking out the Sync-Lock, I think). I've upgraded the console some more since, lot's more clarity now, but this shows quite well what half an hour of jamming (and then simply muting midi tracks on and off in real time) sounds like. Never mind the glitches, the external converter wasn't synced properly (not too audible though). And yes, it sounds like a porn soundtrack.

www.scherer.de/Download/Mushrooms.mp3

Well, you didn't change my mind on Moby. That track was the same ol' crap I always hear in any place trying to be hip by having lots of stainless steel furniture, expensive drinks and tracks that all sound like that one to me.

However, I'll shut up on the other front. Maybe you're right. That track didn't sound like any porn music I've heard (though I'm not a connoisseur ) but it sounded fantastic. Can you tell a little more about what instruments you used in it?

And yes, I'm now mad and will probably have to go on a gear hunt.

[living sounds]

However, I'll shut up on the other front. Maybe you're right. That track didn't sound like any porn music I've heard (though I'm not a connoisseur ) but it sounded fantastic. Can you tell a little more about what instruments you used in it?

And yes, I'm now mad and will probably have to go on a gear hunt.

Glad you like it, wasn't expecting that...
Anyway the gear was 909, 727, DIY 808 kickdrum, microcon II through A/DA flanger (the main sequence), TX7 (bell-like sound), SH-2 (bass), SE-1 (synth sound with lot's of reverb), Polaris through MF-103 (lead), JD-990 (pad). Also several DIY compressors, DIY Dimension D, two Lexicon Nuverbs, a Studio Quad for the delay. All mixed through a Soundcraft 200B I bought for 100 bucks and then recapped and modded thoroughly.
The thing I like is, it sounds like this with basically half an hour of programming midi, drum machines, some patching and turning EQ knobs on the fly. Layering of kick drums and bass etc. without low cuts doesn't translate into mud, but just adds up nicely. The obvious downside is I will hardly ever be able to reproduce it exactly like this, even with most of the gear (including the reverb units) midified.

Anyone got an idea how to label this kind of music? It started out as Psybient (actually just testing the newly arrived Sync-Lock), but then with the DX-sound got more camp and softporn soundtrack like...