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Vroom decay bug (win xp/7 32bit)

Official support for: valhalladsp.com

Moderator: valhallasound

miedex
KVRian
 
540 posts since 1 May, 2011

Postby miedex; Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:32 pm Vroom decay bug (win xp/7 32bit)

when automating decay with any of my controllers it steps from .89 s straight to .10 s :(
Last edited by miedex on Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
miedex
miedex
KVRian
 
540 posts since 1 May, 2011

Postby miedex; Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:57 pm

This subforum is QUIET! Does anyone feel like testing this?
miedex
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
2856 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:11 am

miedex wrote:when automating decay with any of my controllers it steps from .89 s straight to .10 s :(


This may have to do with the difference between the warping used in the DECAY slider on the GUI, and the warping used in the low level Decay parameter:

DECAY GUI: Exponential, weighted towards low decay times
Decay parameter: Linear

The different warping between the GUI and low level parameters is due to some low level issues with how Juce (the plugin framework I am using) handles the different cross-platform parameter ranges. There is discussion on the Juce forum of creating a more robust solution for dealing with parameters on VST/AU/RTAS, but this is still in the formulation stages.

Changing the parameter warping at this point would break every existing DAW project and preset for all VRoom users, so the parameter warping needs to stay the way it is.

Sean Costello
miedex
KVRian
 
540 posts since 1 May, 2011

Postby miedex; Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:24 pm

I think you misunderstood or something. Its not just the GUI slider that jumps its the actual value, and using the mouse to change this value causes no problems, only when using my hosts midi learn to grab control of it is when it jumps from .89 s to .10 s! This isn't a casual problem its like the Achilles heel of Valhalla Room.

edit: Just to make sure my ears weren't playing tricks on me I went back and listened closely as I changed the decay with my BCR2000 midi controller and yes when it jumps from .89 s to .10 s there is an audible pop/click.
miedex
bangzero
KVRist
 
57 posts since 8 Jun, 2006

Postby bangzero; Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:13 am

if you divide the 100 sec range of the decay parameter by the 128 steps of the typical midi controller value you get ~0.79 sec. so when your midi controller changes from 0 to 1, the decay changes from 0.10 sec to 0.10 + 0.79 sec, which gives the jump to 0.89 sec that you see.

if you can use a higher resolution midi control (like pitch bend, MSB+LSB, or NRPNs) you can get finer control of the decay. but your hardware midi controllers and your DAW must support these higher resolution controls for that to work.
miedex
KVRian
 
540 posts since 1 May, 2011

Postby miedex; Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:09 am

Is there any other plugin that reacts this way with a standard controller? This is a huge let down.
miedex
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
2856 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:33 am

bz0 wrote:if you divide the 100 sec range of the decay parameter by the 128 steps of the typical midi controller value you get ~0.79 sec. so when your midi controller changes from 0 to 1, the decay changes from 0.10 sec to 0.10 + 0.79 sec, which gives the jump to 0.89 sec that you see.


This is an accurate description of what is going on. The GUI has a warping of the values so that the slider spends more of its time in the lower decay times, but the underlying low level parameter has a linear distribution of decay times.

Changing the distribution of the decay times in the low level parameter would fix the issue with MIDI controllers, but would break the automation and settings in all existing projects that use VRoom, and would also break all presets. This would piss off the vast majority of ValhallaRoom customers, so I'm not going to do this.

At some point in the future, I will look into MIDI learn for the Valhalla DSP plugins, where the parameter warping would be wrapped into the MIDI functionality. However, I have a new plugin out that requires attention, and I have already released 9 updates to ValhallaRoom (adding new reverb modes, resizable GUI, mix lock, prev/next buttons for presets, etc.), so I need to focus on other work for the time being.

Sean Costello
bangzero
KVRist
 
57 posts since 8 Jun, 2006

Postby bangzero; Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:45 pm

miedex wrote:[...]This is a huge let down.

the limited resolution of standard midi controllers is very frustrating for many. imho, the solution is to use some sort of higher resolution controller. VRoom provides very fine control over the Decay parameter if you can. for instance, in Reaper i can map a standard controller to the first few percent of the pitch shift range and then use pitch shift to automate Decay in fine steps over a range of 0.1-2 seconds. this is awkward given Reaper's somewhat crude automation system, but it does work. PM me for details if this would help miedex.
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
2856 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:02 pm

bz0 wrote:
miedex wrote:[...]This is a huge let down.

the limited resolution of standard midi controllers is very frustrating for many. imho, the solution is to use some sort of higher resolution controller. VRoom provides very fine control over the Decay parameter if you can. for instance, in Reaper i can map a standard controller to the first few percent of the pitch shift range and then use pitch shift to automate Decay in fine steps over a range of 0.1-2 seconds. this is awkward given Reaper's somewhat crude automation system, but it does work. PM me for details if this would help miedex.


This would be a very useful tutorial for me as well, if you can spare the time!

Thanks,

Sean Costello
miedex
KVRian
 
540 posts since 1 May, 2011

Postby miedex; Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:42 pm

The concern here is that Vroom can't be used live in any reasonable way until the Decay bug is sorted. Perhaps a different mode that can be activated like the mix lock, could be a quick and dirty solution. This seems like a problem that should have been dealt with in the beta testing stage.
miedex
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
2856 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:49 pm

miedex wrote:The concern here is that Vroom can't be used live in any reasonable way until the Decay bug is sorted. Perhaps a different mode that can be activated like the mix lock, could be a quick and dirty solution. This seems like a problem that should have been dealt with in the beta testing stage.


I don't think that a quick and dirty solution is the best idea. Implementing MIDI Learn into VRoom, with the proper warping built into the MIDI functionality, is a better long term solution.

I will be researching MIDI Learn functionality in the next few weeks. Assuming I come up with a reasonable solution, I will fold this into ÜberMod, then VRoom and Shimmer. This will happen in a Q1 2012 timeframe.

Thanks for bringing this issue up - this will shape how the MIDI functionality works for Valhalla plugins.

Regards,

Sean Costello
bangzero
KVRist
 
57 posts since 8 Jun, 2006

Postby bangzero; Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:15 pm

at Sean's request, here is a tutorial on how to do scaled mapping of a standard midi controller to pitch bend in Reaper for high resolution control of Decay:

[a new streamlined version of this tutorial has been posted in the Reaper Tips and Tricks forum here]

(edit to post link to tutorial in the Reaper forums)
Last edited by bangzero on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
bangzero
KVRist
 
57 posts since 8 Jun, 2006

Postby bangzero; Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:42 pm

one more thing... :^)

i hope as you consider MIDI learn Sean, that you will include the possibility of learning high resolution MIDI controllers in linear fashion. both paired MSB/LSB CCs and NRPNs would be useful, especially for DAWs like Reaper that don't yet support these high resolution options. warped MIDI control makes sense for the limited standard MIDI CC range, but with high resolution linear control would make some very creative kinds of automation possible.

enjoy! /dan
(edit to move plug-in info into tutorial)
bangzero
KVRist
 
57 posts since 8 Jun, 2006

Postby bangzero; Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:16 pm

<bump> to note new version of the tutorial in the Reaper Tips and Tricks forum here.

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