Dance/House melody + melody rhythm

[Loki Fuego]

I think you are not versed particularly in the area of theory. I don't think you're a teacher of it. I don't take you as very qualified to offer advice, or really what you have offered is validation to the next person that wants to be convinced, or find the device to convince themselves, to do less work in music. Which you did out of pure combativeness? as "revealed" subsequently, if I am to take you at your word, you *are* studying and practicing. And to validate your previous efforts I suppose, done before the current endeavors, piano lessons and what-not.

I never pretended to be a teacher of music theory. I'm sure that I'm not that good at music theory compared to you. But I do specialize and have experience in certain genres of music, and I feel myself competent enough in order to give advice related to these genres of music.

[jancivil]

I think there's just one thing that needs clarification

To me, it felt like jancivil was trying to make a statement that without knowing how to play an instrument, your chances of succeess with musical career through using DAW's will be very limited.

I wasn't trying to do that. The words 'career', 'success' do not appear anywhere in my posts (evidently one can have no knowledge or particular gift for music and be a Big Producer). This is a fabrication of yours.
You're very clever. You appear earnest, but you're actually trying to extend this disagreement further than it is artificially. You revealed yourself to us, you say on the one hand you don't actually have the position that instrumental work won't help you, but OTOH you extend the argument. For the sake of arguing: this is a game for you. This is entertainment. However, for the rest of the people that will read this, the honest ones that don't have the agenda you show'd to me, I will proceed, esp. since you provide a structure for what I wish to convey.

And very limited is the part that needs clarification.

Towards what end? What will clarification serve? (To waste my time.) It's clear from your own language you got the point completely:

Will the chances be unreasonably bad?
Just bad?
Or just, "well, they could get better with knowing how to play an instrument".

May as well be a rhetorical question. However, if your presentation was interested in following the actual thread, you'll have 'will' in place of 'could' there. We have not been ambiguous here.

I don't think it's fair to state boldly that using DAW only without ever playing a real instrument will get you mostlikely nowhere, because there's no real evidence for such statement. But on the contrary, there's no real evidence either that it's a must for you to know how to play a real instrument

A must to do what? House music using loops and relying on a machine to play fast, or to play anything at all? No, prowess isn't so relevant. But you will always be relying on a machine to do your work. If you don't have the muscle, you're by definition weaker than. Do you feel an athlete can rely on a machine to run a race or score the goals? Do you think a writer relies on an algorithm on a chip for her grammar and syntax etc, out of which stems her style? Do you think household robots are painting masterpieces?

There isn't anything obscure about the idea, experiential knowledge -> muscle memory; a person has subtlety, memories, opinions... knowledge. Beyond information, experience with the act - cause and effect - and eventually you know. You're going to rely, from day one, on the machine to do everything. And on gathering someone's recordings in lieu of making your own? And you will replace all of the above experience and development of muscle memory, or memory of the actions you took, or the interaction with another person, with what? All you have so far is some empty language and a remote projection out of that empty language, a pseudo-argument ('you have no evidence'. you have no evidence). This is all a great lie. Weakness is strength. It's Orwellian it is.

People who were deaf, have made great music, so would lack of knowledge for playing at least one instrument, really limit you that much?

that's cute. What deaf musicians made *great* music? Do you mean Ludwig van Beethoven? He had a whole career and the vastest of experiences as a pianist and getting ensembles to perform his music before the affliction took hold. And the reason WHY he was able to continue is that he developed a subtle and powerful connection between his body, ear, mind. to the extent of having an inner ear, an internal knowledge, out of an experience you couldn't begin to imagine from where you are now.

Could you be referring to Evelyn Glennie, the percussionist? She had a similar experience, albeit less long-lived, and a drive and a powerful mind to sort out how to approach it. From her INSTRUMENT and her EXPERIENCE with its vibrations. Here are two geniuses. What has that to do with you? You are someone asking questions on the most rudimentary level and trolling KVR to stir up shit for entertainment (frankly I don't believe you had anything other than maybe a vague idea of Beethoven in mind and this was just another tactic. But thank you for providing the perfect opportunity for refutation.).

For many decades, there were no computers, nobody wouldn't even imagine one. More and more people will show up with the mindset "f*** the piano, I want to make music without knowing how to play one!" and try their best to do so.

You say that like it's a good thing. We have already the evidence in abundance how bad a thing it really is: the House music and other EDM people posting youtube vids of that here, people that can't by ear figure out the most BASIC baby tunes, the most BASIC chord changes, or even detect a key when it never changed... the SIMPLEST rhythms are a great bafflement. And they canvass this board trying to get people to do that work for them for free. (Because they are weak. In the olden days before computers we couldn't do this. We had to do it ourselves, so we had to find the strength. We walked with our own two feet.)

You'll try your best? Bullshit. The evidence I have is people not trying for shit but relying on loops, asking about software to tell them what chords, and depending upon people on this board to transcribe the shite for them.

This is future shock for me.

It's a devolvement. We are Devo. Look, it's an historical process and inevitable in my view. It's not however a good thing and I won't let you get away with your fraudulent argument it is. It's what a lazy person wants, is what it is. As you let the machines take over, you lose, we lose in a bigger picture, the ability to do the work. Read some scifi, do some thought experiments, think. ..

[Gamma-UT]

Here's a handy sticker to put on threads, CDs, downloads that offend you with their reliance on machines, lest no-one be misled by the steady beat of a four-on-floor house record into believing that it is a representation of the art of humans.

[debra1rlo]

Here's a handy sticker to put on threads, CDs, downloads that offend you with their reliance on machines, lest no-one be misled by the steady beat of a four-on-floor house record into believing that it is a representation of the art of humans.

awesome

[brekehan]

It doesn't sounds like you are having problem with Melody (notes). You are talking about the wrong dimension.

To me, EDM has 3 dimensions:
1) Notes
2) Rhythm
3) Filters and Effects

The first dimension is easy, as you said. However, people waste oodles of time concentrating on it, learning exotic scaled and chord progressions. Fact is 9/10 times anything I hear is in a minor or major key. Most of it simply uses 5ths or octaves. There simply isn't that much to do note wise. There are a few that work in something exotic once in a great while, and I love them...like Infected Mushroom using Hungarian Minor. But for the most past, just play A minor and the 1st 5th and 4th chords and you did as good as 90% of everyone else.

The second dimension is harder. This is just plain talent for the most part. You can't learn rhythm as easily as notes. It is something you feel. You can however, listen to and emulate others. You can also experiment. A couple things I've tried is to read up on rhythms used in other genres. Try programming a lead using a Latin Salsa 1,2,3 5,6,7 over a 4 to the floor kick for instance. Or a swing 16 (google it) over 4 to the floor. Sometimes my ears like part of it and I can go move things around to get something unique and new. Another thing I've tried is going and reading all the material available for drummers. I've got no drum set, but reading about techniques rock and roll drummers use has given me alot of ideas for my electronic drums and even instruments.

The 3rd is easy and hard. I think anyone can twist the filter cutoff knob slowly over time. But less people can know off the bat, that some combination of compression, delay, reverb, and equing will get the sound they hear in their head. Less people know how to get the whole song sounding good together instead of willy nilly instuments all thrown on top of eachother. But this comes from reading, watching, and networking with everyone and every resource you can get your hands on.

In summary, I think every electronic music genre is more about rhythm and effects than musical notes. Although, _some_ of it can get complicated note wise, it is better to concentrate on rhythm and effects usage first.

[Aerocity]

In summary, I think every electronic music genre is more about rhythm and effects than musical notes. Although, _some_ of it can get complicated note wise, it is better to concentrate on rhythm and effects usage first.

Why didn't you say that before? Thats what i learned myself in the last month's. I spent too much time on Music Theory and didn't finish any tracks. I stopped learning Theory that much and i'm concentrating on Rhythm + Effects/Filters/Transitions etc. so that i was able to finish my first "real" arrangement for 90%

[ssstangb0y]

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