KVR Audio

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:57 am

VitaminD wrote: I didn't name any names.. if you wish to fill those shoes.. so be it.

Oh I do! Again, it pisses me off that "idea" guys don't read the sticky. Ideas aren't worth much in this business. IMPLEMENTATION is everything, and where 99.99% of the actual work takes place.

thevinn · Post by **thevinn** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:28 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:IMPLEMENTATION is everything, and where 99.99% of the actual work takes place.

This having been said, I have a GREAT idea for a new plugin! All the graphics and interfaces are done, I just need a good programmer or two to add the signal processing!

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:49 am

thevinn wrote:
AdmiralQuality wrote:IMPLEMENTATION is everything, and where 99.99% of the actual work takes place.
This having been said, I have a GREAT idea for a new plugin and I just need a good programmer or two to make it come to life!

Exactly.

So, if it really is a good NEW idea, you might want to see if you can patent it. Then you can safely approach developers to quote on implementing your idea into however much of a product as you require. And THEN the developer can't run off and steal your idea as payback after you invariably neglect to pay her. Because their implementation (which, they own unless you've contracted otherwise) still violates your patent.

But I hate patents, at least in software. And I don't think "innovation" is really where the value in music products is. "Better" is often better than "new". And, while there are some current atrocious examples of companies doing exactly this, you're not really supposed to be able to patent the trivial implementation details of software. Copyright covers that. Still, you get Apple claiming to have invented the slider.

So it's nasty out there, particularly for the little guys. If you REALLY have a valuable idea, the last thing you should do is come and talk about it here.

But fortunately, in reality it doesn't often work that way. For example we only have about three "company secrets" that we don't openly share. Other than that, I've been happy to post our (inherently copyrighted) source code straight out of the product (which is usually faster than writing someone an example). It's just not interesting enough to keep secret, it's mostly trivial implementation of the API or most likely, GUI code. The value in the products was all the WORK it took to implement the good ideas. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Original contrivances are rare, particularly in computer science. Creative implementations abound however, and fortunately we're not currently in the patent-war environment that we're seeing with the big guys. (Not that they make music software. And they don't because they can't. They don't have in-house attention span or corporate memory required to stay on target. Nor enough in-house users to even understand the product. Musicians are a niche. Software music production, a niche of a niche!) But just imagine we had to pay whoever made the first soft-synth every time we published our own new, completely unique soft-synths. Even for free or SE/SM products! Very few would.

Anyway, I digress. Whether you have a good or unique idea, or not, money talks. Some of us do this for a living. If you're looking for investors to speculate on the success of your vaporous product idea and contribute man-months of work for nothing but a promise of a piece of the (of course, inevitable) profits, you'll probably find this isn't the most appropriate board to do it on.

VitaminD · Post by **VitaminD** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:36 am

*shrug* fair enough.

arakula · Post by **arakula** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:48 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:(If the piano was invented today, Apple would patent both the keyboard and the phenomenon of vibration.)

Prior art! Prior art!

LBarratt · Post by **LBarratt** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:43 am

That's the only reason I quoted in public. LBarratt should prove me wrong by hiring me (or any other developer) to do it. But waving money around in your first post, then proceeding to engage in a sales job on the rest of the thread doesn't make any sense (and is, frankly, insulting to those of us who do this for a living). If you have the money (or can get it "tomorrow") then you don't NEED to sell us on your great idea. You have the process code, you have the money. What's the hold-up?[/quote]

Are you offering to do the job? I have had two offers on programming. One can't do audio units, the other has not responded yet about audio units. Was your $50k a sarcastic mocking of me? These forums can be like a school playground, there is so much passion I can't even tell if you were mocking me. I can say you appear very unprofessional in your communication. I am no prince, but I do have a wife and family who hold me accountable for money and time well spent.

LBarratt · Post by **LBarratt** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:58 am

So I think I am decided. I would like to hire Admiral Quality to help me finish my software. I would like a bit of tuition in how to finish this software(which will help me get over this learning bump), some programming done, some advise on how to protect my software,etc. He appears to be a highly skilled individual with more than the necessary qualifications. What would be a fair hourly rate for him to charge me when I fly to his home state? I can reside there at my own expense. Please give me your informed opinion.
Thanks Lach

antto · Post by **antto** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:16 am

[antto_thinkering_to_himself]

...now .. maybe giving plugins for free is the better idea
[/antto_thinkering_to_himself]

davidguda · Post by **davidguda** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:18 am

If your stuff is really that good and if you go through and hire a programmer I don't think that you should narrow yourself to just audio units. There is relatively not much extra work to make at least VST too and you reach out to so many more hosts. Is this just for promotion of you algorithm so you can sell it do established plugin developers or is it to make business of your own.
Just beware that the audio plugin marked is kind of crowded and making money is not that easy.
about hourly rate.. 100-150$ /hour perhaps dependant on how many hours and all that kind of stuff.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:22 pm

LBaratt, you're coming to live in Toronto so you can supervise me? This deal just keeps getting better and better.

Again, I don't usually take contracts based on hourly rates. I typically bid on the entire job. That way, if I'm inefficient or unlucky it's me who suffers for it. But if I happen to work really efficiently, in less time than I estimated, and not run into any unpleasant surprises along the way (which we ALWAYS run into in software development) it's me who gets rewarded.

Once we agree what the job is worth in total, you pay me half up front, then I start working. Then you pay me the remainder in installments as I reach certain milestones that we have both agreed on. The first payment you miss, I stop working until I get it, but at least I haven't been working for free all that time. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh but I've been ripped off taking freelance "contracts" too many times from people who turned out to actually have no cash on hand, and it will not happen again.

Let's take my flagship product, Poly-Ana, for example. It took about a year worth of 70 hour weeks to get to version 1.0. So for David Guda's suggested $100 hr, that would be $364,000. (And trust me, I haven't made anywhere near that much from selling the product yet.) I'd say about a quarter of that time was spent on the actual audio process, and the other three quarters on GUI and "trivial" implementation issues and testing/fixing. So $50k to put a GUI and copy-protection system around your process code (which works 100% and is bug-free, right?) as well as integrate to a purchase system on your website is actually quite reasonable.

In reality, I'm happy to work on longer term contracts for somewhat less than that hourly rate. But again, rather than have you stand over my shoulder counting hours, I'd rather just set a fixed price for the entire job, with milestones for payments along the way. There also has to be a firm agreement on exactly WHAT I'm building and what the milestones are. You're not allowed to change your mind about what you want halfway through my work (unless we both agree to and re-negotiate the terms).

Same thing for support and further development after that. You pay me a small retainer so I'll there to help when you need me. And we agree on new contracts for each future update you want.

I would agree to you owning the source code I produce, however I would retain the right to use any part of that code for myself (as indeed, much of it will have come from my existing products). And excepting your process code of course, which you will maintain copyright of.

Anyway, if you're really serious, we should probably take this into private message or email. You might want to request quotes from other developers here as well. Sorry if I've sounded discouraging, but this is serious business and like I said, I've worked for false promises too many times in my career and I simply will not go down that road anymore. And at the end of the day, I need to be able to afford to eat and have a roof over my head to do the work you want done. That's what the half up front is for -- the worst case of if you disappear or turn out to be a crazy person or something.

I think any of us are going to be suspicious and skeptical until we can understand what it is you're building. But this is why you pay us, then we don't need to believe in the product like you do, we only need to believe in our own ability to do what we've been contracted to do. Which if it's AU/VST/GUI/Copy-protect/Web-payment, I know I can do and can demonstrate that in my existing products. There are certainly other developers here who can offer the same though so why not think about your budget and requirements, then come back with a new post here describing the job and requesting quotes?

And feel free to email me at aq@admiralquality.com if you'd like to talk about this in private.

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:14 am

LBarratt wrote:So I think I am decided. I would like to hire Admiral Quality to help me finish my software.

you won't find anyone with a better handle!

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:16 am

xoxos wrote:
LBarratt wrote:So I think I am decided. I would like to hire Admiral Quality to help me finish my software.
you won't find anyone with a better handle!

I also answer to "Mike".

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:19 am

if you're looking for cheaper rates, i'm yours for life for an assault rifle and a couple of magazines of ammo.

which shoots about as fast as i can put out vst with synthedit.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:20 am

xoxos wrote:if you're looking for cheaper rates, i'm yours for life for an assault rifle and a couple of magazines of ammo.

which shoots about as fast as i can put out vst with synthedit.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:41 am

LBarratt, do not forget to add a clause in the contract against this:

Where to go from here?