if you've the time , you should try the demo of madrona labs ' kaivo ' ...jancivil wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:03 pm Ok, then let's bump this thing, if it's going to be weaponized against me.
NB: there was a fair amount of history there in terms of a backstory for the flaming herein. ...
... But a primary focus here is the perceptibility of things moving at a rate faster than we can really keep up with aurally and at such a closeness in terms of the vertical frequency; creating a 'fake polyphony' via the former and the micropolyphony by the combination of both or the latter per se. So Ligeti was writing multiple lines in order to create a "cloud"; and rather than work in terms of dissonance and consonance, a conception of clouds versus clearing up.
Anyway, what I'm wanting to do next is work with grains creating pulsation, a very physical presence from the vertical *beating* and have a sort of cloudiness, denseness versus clearing ie., more apparent, rhythmically.
"As Alien As" [Wrong Planet Jazz].
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experimental.crow experimental.crow https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6258
- KVRAF
- 6895 posts since 9 Mar, 2003 from the bridge of sighs
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Thanks. But a 'gentle reminder every 60 seconds' would make this not very useful in the interim, and I'm tapped out as far as buying.
I'm looking at a dozen or so things as it is, which will just work. EG: Reaktor builds...
I'm looking at a dozen or so things as it is, which will just work. EG: Reaktor builds...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
The argument in that thesis:
<Essay by Koenig was mainly composed of sinusoidal sounds which can be easily followed by the ear at some points but at other moments, those sounds formed interesting conglomerates where none of them could be individually spotted. That was due to the extreme brevity of them and to the high speed of their succession in time.
In Essay, the simultaneity of sounds above and below the differentiation level of the ear created an interesting texture.
In this texture one could spot and follow those sounds above the perception threshold, sounds longer than 50ms., as a kind of “melody”. At the same time, sounds below that threshold, shorter than 50ms., are perceived as if they were “simultaneous” with the others. Even when they were not. That “false simultaneity” not only created an interestingly complex sound aggregate, but another quality, previously unheard of, emerged as well.
Koenig called this quality the “sound (timbre-color) of movement” Bewegungsfarbe [1]. Rhythm is not anymore perceived as a motion but instead rather a constantly changing sound-color is heard.
More layers of this composite “sound-color” could be created by varying the dynamics of the component waves.>
[1] Ligeti, György. 2001. Neuf Éssais Sur La Musique. Genève: Éditions Contrechamps.
And this applies to Varèse's ideas as well. That a combination of timbre and rhythm produces a third emergent quality which cannot so easily be notated. Of course Varèse was not so much doing this blurring let alone the micropolyphony.
Anyone with some experience here - with particular methodology or known devices - is more than welcome to contribute.
<Essay by Koenig was mainly composed of sinusoidal sounds which can be easily followed by the ear at some points but at other moments, those sounds formed interesting conglomerates where none of them could be individually spotted. That was due to the extreme brevity of them and to the high speed of their succession in time.
In Essay, the simultaneity of sounds above and below the differentiation level of the ear created an interesting texture.
In this texture one could spot and follow those sounds above the perception threshold, sounds longer than 50ms., as a kind of “melody”. At the same time, sounds below that threshold, shorter than 50ms., are perceived as if they were “simultaneous” with the others. Even when they were not. That “false simultaneity” not only created an interestingly complex sound aggregate, but another quality, previously unheard of, emerged as well.
Koenig called this quality the “sound (timbre-color) of movement” Bewegungsfarbe [1]. Rhythm is not anymore perceived as a motion but instead rather a constantly changing sound-color is heard.
More layers of this composite “sound-color” could be created by varying the dynamics of the component waves.>
[1] Ligeti, György. 2001. Neuf Éssais Sur La Musique. Genève: Éditions Contrechamps.
And this applies to Varèse's ideas as well. That a combination of timbre and rhythm produces a third emergent quality which cannot so easily be notated. Of course Varèse was not so much doing this blurring let alone the micropolyphony.
Anyone with some experience here - with particular methodology or known devices - is more than welcome to contribute.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I would like to try your suggestion, but I think I need a flow for this idea and I'm a little bit irritable caffeinated enough...
I hate the interruptus of it all.
I hate the interruptus of it all.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
aaaaand I'm nowhere close to my idea at this time. I'm kind of an idiot. I really want to not go down this rabbit hole of 'oh, that sounds cool' and be disciplined, even methodical. But, hey, what happens nonetheless. 
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- KVRAF
- 15517 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
No, would you like me to quote your lack of understanding? Because I can do that. Here you are "fronting." You have no technical education at all and in that thread you were basing your opinion on taking some limited class aimed at musicians and based on the DX7 architecture. You were "fronting" about something that you didn't understand and you had no interest in learning something new, in particular, about the very thing that you were arguing about.
That's not the only time that you've demonstrated a lack of intellectual curiosity. There's nothing wrong with that, but you don't get to "weaponize" it and use it against other people when you yourself are demonstrably incurious about things that don't interest you.
If the shoe fits.THEN, calling me hypocrite
Your words on the very first page of this thread are what make you a hypocrite. If you don't like other people's music, then live your own words and stay out of their threads.
Notice that it's only you going on a tirade of name calling and nastiness here. You aren't the victim here even though you've managed to convince a few people that you are.
You owe me,yet another, irony meter.You're an asshole here -
Last edited by ghettosynth on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
bump some more again, why not. If you think I'm going to click to reveal whatever you wrote, oh well...
"my thread", hey so I'm going to get into *my trip* here, I took an extra nerve pain med because today has been a motherf**ker for me and I'm in an expansive mood, albeit still too f**ked-over to get deep into the new thing like it requires, as much as I want to. But who gives a f**k, I feel like prattling on stupidly. This is old people shit, reflecting like it's twilight time, yeah? Talking to no one. Open the book. I'm feeling less inhibited today, that's not a bad thing.
One thing, I was listening to a Ligeti composition I'd never even heard before.
The Chamber Concert of 1969-70. After Youtube recommended this other Samuel Andreyev analysis video and he touched on a couple of major features, then of course the Youtube algo showed me Ensemble Intercontemporain, Boulez' old group doing it, beautifully filmed.
This piece is pretty off-the-wall for any time. Ligeti was enjoying his surprising success off the 2001, A Space Odyssey soundtrack, so I guess he was feeling his oats because... well I can't believe some of the things in this work. At one point he has the celesta just banging away like a mad person, as fast as possible. It's SO dissonant, and so weird that it's really the epitome of what people that do not like that sort of thing would call random nonsense. But it's seriously tightly structured and controlled. In an objective consideration, aurally - getting away from expectations of harmony and melody - it's pretty obvious this would be the case. But the note choices... and then the drastic changes in gesture and texture...
It kind of strikes me as a grand f**k you all, and not only to conservatives but to the style of avant-garde - to dodecaphonic serialism - at the time. I have not been shocked in a long_time by some music. I've heard some out shit lately, Miles Davis in the early 70s, had run out of f**ks to give in negative numbers... But dayum, Ligeti. Who knew? I knew the other clustery, cloudy-to-clear <micropolyphonic> moves of his in the late 60s, Atmospheres being the most famous, and I knew some of the later stuff, but this I did not know.
I had a rather radical - radical meaning change on a fundamental level, almost the diametric opposite to reactionary - period in the mid-late 1980s, with Scott Brazieal, composer of the band Cartoon, and in my time with him PFS. I had a project called Free Associations during this, which was more radical than PFS easily. None of the really dangerous stuff survived, probably, and it was on cassette tape anyway. But those were the days. We developed actually a style, we practically formalized techniques. We went into the studio with that, but with a form outlined, Golden Section even. We wrote a lovely 80s style pop tune called Home From Work, which came out of the whacky shit, formed little by little, habitually referring to this phrase. And it goes out from there. Man I wish I had that master. No one baked it, so it wouldn't be any good anyway.
Recently I shared a Takemitsu work at FB and Brazieal likened it to FA; "from 6:05 on". URL, note: t=364, ie., cued to 6:04
https://youtu.be/7CZEZxo6bBM?t=364
(I moved away from the West in a concerted way around the time, or before I quit CCM in '78, is one thing. No regrets there. I never cared about getting a degree, I'm too lazy and too precious for that kind of regulated trip. I quit high school after a couple of months. I split the reservation in all but body after grammar school, which I didn't have any regard for either.
I was above average and the average there and then was probably not up to the mean in the wider world to begin with. But here is where bad habits are based, I got away with everything (until I didn't, which was far too late.).)
I wasn't listening to anybody, although later I found certain agreement with Fred Frith and Henry Kaiser, Kaiser the scion (grandson) of the industrialist Henry Kaiser whose ship building for the war effort [WWII], built Richmond California basically.
We were abstract. We felt like f**k all this shit, the Reagan administration, the kind of plastic music so many appear to want to dwell in for life. Nothing compared to today, it was peaches and cream then compared to the shit we eat now.
Ironically, we learned to be entertainers at this time; so we could get away with murder. We'd lead you down that garden path right into the wall, the facade, the conceit and strip it bare. We'd do this slight shift... my old girlfriend came to this one show, she had been unwell and she thought, and said 'you've gone too far this time'. It was disturbing.
(Cannot find the picture I want, it's somewhere in the ether, of the Airport Lounge Band at Club Foot in 1986. Probably.
Me, Brazieal and Allen Whitman (Mermen, Joe Satriani). Allen fronting and singing. I did stand-up drum machine and comedy. But it's a hilarious image, I wasn't paying attention to being photographed and was sitting there like I'm Bob Fripp or some shit while Allen is doing the classic idiotic rock mugging with the bass, which we find by ca. 2010 he's doing unironically with Satriani's group. Then I did the country group with him, which he did not front. You never had to tell Allen what to play.)
But I was a lot freer then, in the ways that count. It's like a previous lifetime.
"my thread", hey so I'm going to get into *my trip* here, I took an extra nerve pain med because today has been a motherf**ker for me and I'm in an expansive mood, albeit still too f**ked-over to get deep into the new thing like it requires, as much as I want to. But who gives a f**k, I feel like prattling on stupidly. This is old people shit, reflecting like it's twilight time, yeah? Talking to no one. Open the book. I'm feeling less inhibited today, that's not a bad thing.
One thing, I was listening to a Ligeti composition I'd never even heard before.
The Chamber Concert of 1969-70. After Youtube recommended this other Samuel Andreyev analysis video and he touched on a couple of major features, then of course the Youtube algo showed me Ensemble Intercontemporain, Boulez' old group doing it, beautifully filmed.
This piece is pretty off-the-wall for any time. Ligeti was enjoying his surprising success off the 2001, A Space Odyssey soundtrack, so I guess he was feeling his oats because... well I can't believe some of the things in this work. At one point he has the celesta just banging away like a mad person, as fast as possible. It's SO dissonant, and so weird that it's really the epitome of what people that do not like that sort of thing would call random nonsense. But it's seriously tightly structured and controlled. In an objective consideration, aurally - getting away from expectations of harmony and melody - it's pretty obvious this would be the case. But the note choices... and then the drastic changes in gesture and texture...
It kind of strikes me as a grand f**k you all, and not only to conservatives but to the style of avant-garde - to dodecaphonic serialism - at the time. I have not been shocked in a long_time by some music. I've heard some out shit lately, Miles Davis in the early 70s, had run out of f**ks to give in negative numbers... But dayum, Ligeti. Who knew? I knew the other clustery, cloudy-to-clear <micropolyphonic> moves of his in the late 60s, Atmospheres being the most famous, and I knew some of the later stuff, but this I did not know.
I had a rather radical - radical meaning change on a fundamental level, almost the diametric opposite to reactionary - period in the mid-late 1980s, with Scott Brazieal, composer of the band Cartoon, and in my time with him PFS. I had a project called Free Associations during this, which was more radical than PFS easily. None of the really dangerous stuff survived, probably, and it was on cassette tape anyway. But those were the days. We developed actually a style, we practically formalized techniques. We went into the studio with that, but with a form outlined, Golden Section even. We wrote a lovely 80s style pop tune called Home From Work, which came out of the whacky shit, formed little by little, habitually referring to this phrase. And it goes out from there. Man I wish I had that master. No one baked it, so it wouldn't be any good anyway.
Recently I shared a Takemitsu work at FB and Brazieal likened it to FA; "from 6:05 on". URL, note: t=364, ie., cued to 6:04
https://youtu.be/7CZEZxo6bBM?t=364
(I moved away from the West in a concerted way around the time, or before I quit CCM in '78, is one thing. No regrets there. I never cared about getting a degree, I'm too lazy and too precious for that kind of regulated trip. I quit high school after a couple of months. I split the reservation in all but body after grammar school, which I didn't have any regard for either.
I was above average and the average there and then was probably not up to the mean in the wider world to begin with. But here is where bad habits are based, I got away with everything (until I didn't, which was far too late.).)
I wasn't listening to anybody, although later I found certain agreement with Fred Frith and Henry Kaiser, Kaiser the scion (grandson) of the industrialist Henry Kaiser whose ship building for the war effort [WWII], built Richmond California basically.
We were abstract. We felt like f**k all this shit, the Reagan administration, the kind of plastic music so many appear to want to dwell in for life. Nothing compared to today, it was peaches and cream then compared to the shit we eat now.
Ironically, we learned to be entertainers at this time; so we could get away with murder. We'd lead you down that garden path right into the wall, the facade, the conceit and strip it bare. We'd do this slight shift... my old girlfriend came to this one show, she had been unwell and she thought, and said 'you've gone too far this time'. It was disturbing.
(Cannot find the picture I want, it's somewhere in the ether, of the Airport Lounge Band at Club Foot in 1986. Probably.
Me, Brazieal and Allen Whitman (Mermen, Joe Satriani). Allen fronting and singing. I did stand-up drum machine and comedy. But it's a hilarious image, I wasn't paying attention to being photographed and was sitting there like I'm Bob Fripp or some shit while Allen is doing the classic idiotic rock mugging with the bass, which we find by ca. 2010 he's doing unironically with Satriani's group. Then I did the country group with him, which he did not front. You never had to tell Allen what to play.)
But I was a lot freer then, in the ways that count. It's like a previous lifetime.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
So, yes indeed let's do point to where I'm coming from;
oh f**k yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64EMdnnRNo
we had days like that
And lest I forget:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hboFvSaKUHU
Some of it's rough going even for me. There are some absolutely brilliant moments.
oh f**k yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64EMdnnRNo
we had days like that
And lest I forget:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hboFvSaKUHU
Some of it's rough going even for me. There are some absolutely brilliant moments.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
In terms of products doing granular synthesis, I keep seeing HaLion 6 here and decided to demo it for real this time.
I have gained some affect here with rhythmic envelopes in order to put an aspect of a patch against another - FM Index and Cutoff Freq being among the more apparent to the ear - in Absynth but this is not directly the thing; just a side product and a facile way to get what I'm after with a rhythmic generation inside of the dense cloud. Something I already understand. I need to get much more basic or fundamental, and this is going to take time.
I wish my mind was less clouded.
I have gained some affect here with rhythmic envelopes in order to put an aspect of a patch against another - FM Index and Cutoff Freq being among the more apparent to the ear - in Absynth but this is not directly the thing; just a side product and a facile way to get what I'm after with a rhythmic generation inside of the dense cloud. Something I already understand. I need to get much more basic or fundamental, and this is going to take time.
I wish my mind was less clouded.
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- KVRAF
- 2357 posts since 24 Nov, 2012
did enjoy this one Jan - I like the way you play with various conventions / hints which is a way of playing with memory. I like that approach - hinting at or drawing out the listeners experience as an overt aspect of the music.
Also like the soundstage and orchestration within that (and across the duration).
Also like the soundstage and orchestration within that (and across the duration).
