Codex vs Serum

[woodsdenis]

This thread began as a *Feature list VS Feature list* fiesta. Such lists usually have poor meanings.

If this was not the case, and if we transplant this thread into the VA field, everybody would use Modular Analog synths like the Xils 4, and nobody would use such things as an Sh-101, or better, a Tb-303 emulation. I have a real Sh-101, and one of my workmates a System 100. We use both.

The sound : In a synthesizer everything counts in the final 'sound'. Having gazillions of filters is nice, provided that these filters sound good. Having 3 filter types is equally good, also provided that these filters sound good, or even better, good AND unique. Same for all other audio blocks and their interactions that constitutes : a synth. At the end of the day, features will not be printed in your track. Sound will ....

my 0.002

Total sense, +1

[xx JPRacer xx]

At the end of the day, features will not be printed in your track. Sound will ....

[martingifford]

Serum sounds grindingly digital at the bottom end and harshly thin at the top end. Great interface and functionality. Good for staccato sounds. But it has ruined my hearing! After listening to a few hundred Serum presets, I can now hear the digitality in all synths. Couldn't buy it because of that. It would constantly bug me.

So someone suggested Codex. After struggling to download and install it, yes, it does sound better. It's really obvious. But then it stopped working - didn't show up in my vst folder. When that was fixed, it wouldn't recognize the demo licence. What a joke. Again, there licensing is something that would bug me too much.

So thumbs down to both for different reasons.

I tried Bazille, but the crackling they deliberately put in the demo stops me from listening to the sounds properly.

What's wrong with these synth makers? They charge too much as well - half the price of a DAW!

[Ingonator]

So someone suggested Codex. After struggling to download and install it, yes, it does sound better. It's really obvious. But then it stopped working - didn't show up in my vst folder. When that was fixed, it wouldn't recognize the demo licence. What a joke. Again, there licensing is something that would bug me too much.

To get the demo license running you first need an account at Waves (where your demo license will be stored then) and also the Waves License manager (first entry in the installer) installed.
Then with the License center you have to move the license from the Wavesv cloud to either a HD or a normal USB flash drive (which now replaces the iLok for all Waves products).
In your VSTPLUGINs folder only the WavesShell DLL file will appear, not single plugins. Anyway in your host you should be able to see the single plugins then.

This system of Waves looks a bit confusing at the first look but for me it was working well after a short time (when i got the Element synth a while ago). Now with the second plugin i got (Codex) it was already quite simple.

The installer for the demo version and full version are identical so if you get a full license you only have to change the license and not reinstall the plugin.

[CrazyLittleSomething]

@martingifford
Oh so true, thanks for the info; saves me 'demo time'

[Ingonator]

While Codex could import WAV files with different bit-depths, sample rate and length i had checked the WAv files of the factory wavetables and searched how to save custom wavetables done with the free Audio Term tool in the same format. I have posted my current solution for the correct output format and a free wavetable done this way here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &start=285

So far this seems to work nicely when imported into Codex.

[PatricB]

Thanks. How come I never know that stuff....

There are two great threads to bookmark at KVR:
- http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3&t=262151
- http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3&t=262178
Have fun!

Thanks for putting me "in the loop"!

[kbaccki]

Serum sounds grindingly digital at the bottom end and harshly thin at the top end. Great interface and functionality. Good for staccato sounds. But it has ruined my hearing! After listening to a few hundred Serum presets, I can now hear the digitality in all synths. Couldn't buy it because of that. It would constantly bug me.

I just demo'd Codex and Serum side by side. To be honest, I hear just as many harsh, digital, fingernail-meets-chalkboard sounds in many of the Codex presets as I do in many of the Serum presets. In addition, I find several (many?) of the Codex presets are veiled and dull -- maybe people are mistaking these veiled, dull sounds for "warm"? IMO there are many Codex sounds that are very fat and full of dimension, many that are are harsh digital glassy ear splitting, and many still that sound like dull rehashes of VA patches. It's a mixed bag, IMO.

I think in the youtube video Yoad Nevo mentioned that many of the Codex wavetables were sampled from Waves VA synths?? Well, that would explain some differences in sound that people are hearing right there -- those VA tables are prefiltered. In fact, he demos scanning through a filter-swept wavetable. In any event, I hear a lot of really dull sounds in the Codex presets. IMO.

As for Serum sounding too digital, harsh, grating at times. Many of the presets seem to be "wide open". On the plus side, I agree with others in that Serum seems to be ultra clean from one end of the spectrum to the other. On the downside many of those wide open presets do indeed sound harsh, IMO. I think there are two problems here: 1.) ridiculous reverb settings, 2.) lack of post-filtering.

On the reverb: listen, I don't think it's the best reverb available either, BUT IT'S NOT TERRIBLE IF YOU DON'T LEAVE IT WIDE OPEN. Like any digital verb that can sound tinny and harsh, you need to filter the top end and the overall damping appropriately. Also, don't overdo the verb in the first place! Flipping through the Serum presets there are way too many presets with far too much reverb on them. I think that certainly contributes to the perception of top end harshness. Could it use a better, creamier verb? Yes, but I also think just dialing back the verb amount and applying a proper level of "high cut" solves a lot of the preset problems.

On #2: matter of taste I suppose, but I've found you can get a lot out of taking a harsh sounding preset and playing around with throwing a MG 24 low pass filter on it in the FX section. Makes a huge difference in the final output in terms of taking off some of the edge, and also playing with the "drive" and "fat" settings can add some harmonics to fatten it up.

Here's come examples of a couple of very basic Serum presets... the first is a pad -- "PD Centipad [7S]" -- that personally I find hard to listen to. Way to much top end fizz and brightness. Look in the FX section, and lo and behold, verb settings WAAAAY to open:



Damping is basically OFF(!), and hi cut is like 15%(!). Just tweaking the verb alone takes out some of that top end harshness.



To "warm it up" I literally threw a MG 24 low pass at the end of the FX chain... maxed out cutoff, no res, and some drive around 40%, fat knob at 30% or so. So basically just a no-op low pass with some harmonics, saturation, etc.



Here's a clip comparing the source, verb tweak, and verb+filter tweak (320kbps AAC):
http://www.hepcat.biz/serum/serum-pad-tweak-320kbps.mp4


On the bass side you can find similar results. For my tweak test I picked the first bass in the demo preset list -- "BA Ampology [CFA]". To me this sounds very clicky and bright on the top end, decent low end, but scooped in the middle. It's a bit of a scooped bass sound with WAAAAY to much top end fizz. Seeing a pattern here.

This patch already has a notch filter, so all I did was tweak that a bit to give me back some of the low mids and add just a touch of filter drive for some fatty fat fatness. Oh, and dial back that damn verb. Really, heavy verb on a bass?



Here's the original followed by the tweaked (320kbps AAC):
http://www.hepcat.biz/serum/serum-bass- ... 20kbps.mp4

Here were the tweaks to the bass patch:

• master: 62%
• verb damp: 50%
• verb high cut: 75%
• filt cut: 280Hz
• filt drive: 10%
• filt fat: 65%

32-bit WAV files of comparison: http://www.hepcat.biz/serum/serum-tweak-WAV.rar

[MorpherX]

[/quote]
I just demo'd Codex and Serum side by side. To be honest, I hear just as many harsh, digital, fingernail-meets-chalkboard sounds in many of the Codex presets as I do in many of the Serum presets. In addition, I find several (many?) of the Codex presets are veiled and dull -- maybe people are mistaking these veiled, dull sounds for "warm"? IMO there are many Codex sounds that are very fat and full of dimension, many that are are harsh digital glassy ear splitting, and many still that sound like dull rehashes of VA patches. It's a mixed bag, IMO.

I think in the youtube video Yoad Nevo mentioned that many of the Codex wavetables were sampled from Waves VA synths?? Well, that would explain some differences in sound that people are hearing right there -- those VA tables are prefiltered. In fact, he demos scanning through a filter-swept wavetable. In any event, I hear a lot of really dull sounds in the Codex presets. IMO.

As for Serum sounding too digital, harsh, grating at times. Many of the presets seem to be "wide open". On the plus side, I agree with others in that Serum seems to be ultra clean from one end of the spectrum to the other. On the downside many of those wide open presets do indeed sound harsh, IMO. I think there are two problems here: 1.) ridiculous reverb settings, 2.) lack of post-filtering.

On the reverb: listen, I don't think it's the best reverb available either, BUT IT'S NOT TERRIBLE IF YOU DON'T LEAVE IT WIDE OPEN. Like any digital verb that can sound tinny and harsh, you need to filter the top end and the overall damping appropriately. Also, don't overdo the verb in the first place! Flipping through the Serum presets there are way too many presets with far too much reverb on them. I think that certainly contributes to the perception of top end harshness. Could it use a better, creamier verb? Yes, but I also think just dialing back the verb amount and applying a proper level of "high cut" solves a lot of the preset problems.

On #2: matter of taste I suppose, but I've found you can get a lot out of taking a harsh sounding preset and playing around with throwing a MG 24 low pass filter on it in the FX section. Makes a huge difference in the final output in terms of taking off some of the edge, and also playing with the "drive" and "fat" settings can add some harmonics to fatten it up.

To "warm it up" I literally threw a MG 24 low pass at the end of the FX chain... maxed out cutoff, no res, and some drive around 40%, fat knob at 30% or so. So basically just a no-op low pass with some harmonics, saturation, etc.
[/quote]

You are right !
The first I did was switching off this reverb.
You can use this reverb without reverberation only with damping and high cutoff down.
Instead of MG 24 I like more MG 18 with reso 15% or D-Pol afterwards.
Also the amount EQ in the FX-Section and the EQ in the delay plays central role.
Last but not least you can achieve good sounding results in the matter of smoohting "harsh" or "digital" presets.

[zerocrossing]

I did a lot of a/b comparisons of Codex and Serum (I own both) and what I found was that the "warmth" of Codex really comes from it's filter, which is pretty limited, compared to Serum, but good sounding. That veil of dullness people are describing could be due to the added lp filter in the eq section, which is a nice have when you're using a bandpass filter and want to limit the high frequencies a bit. There's a 4 band graphic EQ as well which also includes a high pass filter. Anyway, if you want that pristine digital sound that Serum has out of Codex, just make sure your filters and EQ settings are right.

Inversely, if you want the warmth of Codex out of Serum, look at the French and German LP filters (under Misc.). I found with the French one especially I was able to get Serum to sound nearly as warm as Codex, so I consider that "case" closed. Also, there is the ability to add a filter and a much more flexible EQ as effects in Serum.

So here's the way I view these two synths. I probably don't need both, but Codex was cheap and I like it because it's simpler architecture is quick and fun to use and I like the Formant option. If I'm thinking of a sound that's pretty simple, I'll boot Codex up. Serum, on the other hand, is a tweaker's paradise. If I want to get lost in sound design for an afternoon, Serum is the way to go.

[dadunn1700]

Anybody willing to do a blind test between both synths? Including filters sweeps, and any other features the 2 synths share.

You've got Codex made buy a multimillion dollar company in Waves that'll make you pay for their plugins compatibility with your computer when it eventually isn't supported anymore (Mt Lion - OSX Mavericks- etc)....and then you have Serum ...a synth made by a tiny company ran out of a single mans house that gives you free updates for life and personalized contact with the actual maker of the synth itself. You decide who to support.

Serum's filter algorithms were made by the same guys that gave you Cytomic's The Drop. Steve hired them to help him out....and they ended up giving him a ton of algorithms they didn't use like the "reverb filter". So I highly doubt filter quality has much to do with anything. It doesn't get any better than Cytomic. The sheer number of filters is staggering in Serum.
Also Serum has tons of wavetable "bend modes".

The plugin itself may not have an arp...but how many daw's include a arpeggiator? How many midi keyboards include a arp? And how many ppl own a specialized 3rd party plugin dedicated to arpeggiating like Cthulu or Kirnu Cream?

[KingTuck]

Anybody willing to do a blind test between both synths? Including filters sweeps, and any other features the 2 synths share.

You've got Codex made buy a multimillion dollar company in Waves that'll make you pay for their plugins compatibility with your computer when it eventually isn't supported anymore (Mt Lion - OSX Mavericks- etc)....and then you have Serum ...a synth made by a tiny company ran out of a single mans house that gives you free updates for life and personalized contact with the actual maker of the synth itself. You decide who to support.

Serum's filter algorithms were made by the same guys that gave you Cytomic's The Drop. Steve hired them to help him out....and they ended up giving him a ton of algorithms they didn't use like the "reverb filter". So I highly doubt filter quality has much to do with anything. It doesn't get any better than Cytomic. The sheer number of filters is staggering in Serum.
Also Serum has tons of wavetable "bend modes".

The plugin itself may not have an arp...but how many daw's include a arpeggiator? How many midi keyboards include a arp? And how many ppl own a specialized 3rd party plugin dedicated to arpeggiating like Cthulu or Kirnu Cream?

I have and like both synths, prefer Serum probably, but this is misleading.

I don't think you understand how human the development team of Codex probably is/was, you make it sound like some massive corporate entity rubbed together their evil greedy fingers and through the slavery of many employees Codex was born. That's not really how this stuff works. Waves have some shitty old business philosophies but I don't believe that they're evil. Because, well, they aren't.

Serum's filters were made by the same person who run's Cytomic. But I'm pretty sure Steve didn't hire him to help out. If I recall the story is that Andy from Cytomic wrote some filter DSP code for Steve for LFO Tool back in the day, and some of that same code made its way into Serum, along with Steve's own filter code. Andy writes some sick shit, but The Drop is infinitely better than the filters in Serum or Codex. It's a far more extensive project than the work done for Steve. When Serum was shipped, Steve had The Drop logo placed in the credits for the synth and Andy asked that it be removed because it is absolutely not the same code used in The Drop.

Arps are nice IMO. Yes you can of course make your way around having one on board the synth, but that's true of tons of shit. If Serum didn't ship with any effects you could use the same argument, most people have all the respective effects just onboard with their DAW. I would like an arp in Serum, but I don't really care much. Not a big thing for me personally.

I'd say Serum has greater sonic capabilities, but Codex has a pretty smart distillation of elements to allow for convenient patch programming. I prefer the filters in Codex and I'll say that I prefer the presets too (even though I don't use presets when writing). The presets in Serum are, in my opinion, primarily shit. But different strokes, so whatever.

[DJ Warmonger]

The plugin itself may not have an arp

That hit me hard when I tried to recreate my trademark Vanguard bass in Serum. At the end of the day (night?) I just learned how to make this arpeggio by hand But it is pretty simple, I wouldn't use it for any more sophisticated lead.

I don't know yet how "warm" Codex can be, but Serum features absolutely sick diode distortion (1), which is incredibly crispy. I never saw "diode distortion" in any other plugin - my guess it's just exponential shaper.

[Kalamata Kid]

I just chimed in in this discussion so I hope I am not off base. I am wondering if Cycle by Amaranth http://www.amaranthaudio.com/products/cycle/ is in the same category as Codex and Serum for comparative purposes.

[DJ Warmonger]

According to description, Cycle may belong to same wavetable "group", but it's more experimental plugin. Serum and Codex come with full set of classic modulation / distortion options, filters and effects, while Cycle is pretty much bare engine. It's impressive, but probably not hands-on for mere mortals.