Synths that have VCF+VCA for each oscillator - do they exist?

[lfm]

Did some sloppy reading probably on Korg Kross saying

"For each voice, two envelope generators (Filter & Amp), two LFOs, two key tracking
generators (Filter & Amp), and two AMS mixers
In addition, pitch EG, common LFO, and two common key tracking generators"

I read that as each oscillator having separate ADSR, but later figured not.

What do they mean - for each voice - anyway?
Would the second polyphony voice behave differently on some synths?

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist - unless modular Eurorack or something?

All synths I encountered have some mixing ability between osc 1 and 2, and then a common filter and amp ADSR.

What synths are most flexible when it comes to modulation and routings ?

Thanks.

[BertKoor]

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist

The typical analog synth first mixes the oscillators and the mixed signal then passes the VCF - VCA. That's cheapest on components and restricts the number of controls which can quickly get out of hand if you have half a dozen oscillators.

This architecture made much sense on compact analog synths, but with the digital revolution the limits were lifted. Not only the selection of waveforms increased by allowing samples to be played, but also controlling the whole synth with 5 buttons, menus in a display and a single data slider made much more possible.

I think the now ancient Roland D-series (D10, D20, D50) had for each "part" (compare with an oscillator - 4 parts per voice) a seperate DCA with its own ADSR, but after mixing the parts all went through one filter. This allowed for one part to be responsible for the attack (transient) and others providing the sustain.

Each synth has its own architecture, and they are all different. Quite revolutional also was the Vector Synthesis engine of the SC Prophet VS. Instead of ADSR's per osc you could control the mix of the four oscillators with a joystick.

[lfm]

Each synth has its own architecture, and they are all different. Quite revolutional also was the Vector Synthesis engine of the SC Prophet VS. Instead of ADSR's per osc you could control the mix of the four oscillators with a joystick.

Thanks.

I remember I was a bit intrigued by Prophet VS when it came, but out of my league moneywise then. Ability to just make a random move with joystick and you get something unexpected.

Reading up on Nord Lead 4, they had some random thingy about parameters that seemed interesting - Impulse Morph.
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-lead-4

Also reading up on Korg M50/Krome/Kross that seems similar - I might have underestimated what you can do. The modulation stuff through AMS(Alternate Modulation Source) looks interesting. And even think you have separate VCF+VCA for each osc, but pitch envelope seems to be common to both.

But not sure how fun they are to work with if making new patches. Rather just have the synth, not a computer editor as well. If the touch screens are improvement for editing on m50/Krome models - or go with Kross.

Need to have hands on in a store to decide, I think. But you pay for a lot of sequencing stuff as well, a more naked synth might be better.

[Mutant]

"For each voice, two envelope generators (Filter & Amp), two LFOs, two key tracking
generators (Filter & Amp), and two AMS mixers
In addition, pitch EG, common LFO, and two common key tracking generators"

I read that as each oscillator having separate ADSR, but later figured not.

A voice usually means a mix of oscillators going into the VCF, then to VCA.
Most analog polysynths have as many filters, amps and sets of control voltage generators as voices.
Otherwise they would be paraphonic, like some very early string synths were (for a good reason).

[V0RT3X]

*edit* realized this was posted in the hardware section.

As far as most polyphonic analog synthesizers go, it's the case of each "voice" being played through it's own synthesis engine. So for a 8-voice synthesizer you have basically 8 monophonic synthesizers in one! This is the reason they get so darn expensive.


To have true flexibility you need a modular style setup with polyphony and the cheapest solutions to this are in the software world.

However you can still make a polyphonic analog modular but it requires a giant wall of modules and cables.


So for a 4 voice analog polysynth using the eurorack you will need something like this along with a polyphonic midi to CV generator and mixer.



I was going to build a modular using modulargrid but i decided this might make more sense.

[Shy]

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist - unless modular Eurorack or something?

Yes, Yamaha CS-80 has two 8-"voice" sections (16 VCOs total), each with its own VCOs, low-pass and high-pass VCFs, VCAs, EGs for the VCFs and EGs for the VCAs. The brilliance (frequency cutoff), resonance, ring modulator, sub-oscillator and LFO are global controls.

Of course, there's no current product with such features.

[lfm]

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist - unless modular Eurorack or something?

Yes, Yamaha CS-80 has two 8-"voice" sections (16 VCOs total), each with its own VCOs, low-pass and high-pass VCFs, VCAs, EGs for the VCFs and EGs for the VCAs. The brilliance (frequency cutoff), resonance, ring modulator, sub-oscillator and LFO are global controls.

Of course, there's no current product with such features.

Thanks.

Lead me to think - is that feature with separate VCF+VCF on each oscillator overrated?
I thought it might be interesting way to build unique timbres.

[lfm]

"For each voice, two envelope generators (Filter & Amp), two LFOs, two key tracking
generators (Filter & Amp), and two AMS mixers
In addition, pitch EG, common LFO, and two common key tracking generators"

I read that as each oscillator having separate ADSR, but later figured not.

A voice usually means a mix of oscillators going into the VCF, then to VCA.
Most analog polysynths have as many filters, amps and sets of control voltage generators as voices.
Otherwise they would be paraphonic, like some very early string synths were (for a good reason).

Thanks.

So there were synths that did not have the full set for all voices - interesting.
Never struck me - so Korg specs are not all sales talk then, it's valid to mention that each voice has this and that.

[lfm]

*edit* realized this was posted in the hardware section.

As far as most polyphonic analog synthesizers go, it's the case of each "voice" being played through it's own synthesis engine. So for a 8-voice synthesizer you have basically 8 monophonic synthesizers in one! This is the reason they get so darn expensive.


To have true flexibility you need a modular style setup with polyphony and the cheapest solutions to this are in the software world.

However you can still make a polyphonic analog modular but it requires a giant wall of modules and cables.


So for a 4 voice analog polysynth using the eurorack you will need something like this along with a polyphonic midi to CV generator and mixer.



I was going to build a modular using modulargrid but i decided this might make more sense.

Thank you.
Yes, one can imagine that analogs had to double up everything for every voice.

[SJ_Digriz]

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist - unless modular Eurorack or something?

Yes, Yamaha CS-80 has two 8-"voice" sections (16 VCOs total), each with its own VCOs, low-pass and high-pass VCFs, VCAs, EGs for the VCFs and EGs for the VCAs. The brilliance (frequency cutoff), resonance, ring modulator, sub-oscillator and LFO are global controls.

Of course, there's no current product with such features.

Thanks.

Lead me to think - is that feature with separate VCF+VCF on each oscillator overrated?
I thought it might be interesting way to build unique timbres.

It's not overrated, it's over-priced. Yamaha GX-1 is another example. But,the cost of having that many discrete signal paths is prohibitive. Hence folks like DSI and Modal doing some alternate methods to keep the cost down on their modern analog poly offerings. But, both the GX-1, CS-80 and things like the oberheim 4/8 voice have stunning sonic flavor. I mean nothing sounds like those things.

[V0RT3X]

*edit* realized this was posted in the hardware section.

As far as most polyphonic analog synthesizers go, it's the case of each "voice" being played through it's own synthesis engine. So for a 8-voice synthesizer you have basically 8 monophonic synthesizers in one! This is the reason they get so darn expensive.


To have true flexibility you need a modular style setup with polyphony and the cheapest solutions to this are in the software world.

However you can still make a polyphonic analog modular but it requires a giant wall of modules and cables.


So for a 4 voice analog polysynth using the eurorack you will need something like this along with a polyphonic midi to CV generator and mixer.



I was going to build a modular using modulargrid but i decided this might make more sense.

Thank you.
Yes, one can imagine that analogs had to double up everything for every voice.

Sorry i should have posted that you will need "4" of those modules, but i think you get the idea.

This is actually one of the reasons why I'm starting to love modular so much now because of the amount of insane flexibility you get. However there are still some very nice non-modular synthesizers that are complex enough such as the *now discontinued * Alesis Andromeda. http://www.alesis.com/andromeda

" Andromeda has three LFOs, each with six waveforms and many powerful features. It also has three 7-stage, 3-level envelopes capable of functions never before found in any analog synthesizer. An extensive mod matrix offers you an enormous freedom in configuring Andromeda’s sonic firepower, adding to its monstrous capabilities"

Building something like this as a modular would require quite the hefty wallet.

Some of the pros to these style setups are the patch recall abilities that you don't get with a modular. Since most of these modern style analog poly-synthesizers are computer controlled, it allows the user to save patches. The downside to this compared to a fully modular version is that you don't have the freedom to create your own modulation sources using cables.

So for most users i think flexibility, portability and usability are what make keyboard poly synthesizers so attractive.

[Shy]

Separate Filter&Amp each osc - do they exist - unless modular Eurorack or something?

Yes, Yamaha CS-80 has two 8-"voice" sections (16 VCOs total), each with its own VCOs, low-pass and high-pass VCFs, VCAs, EGs for the VCFs and EGs for the VCAs. The brilliance (frequency cutoff), resonance, ring modulator, sub-oscillator and LFO are global controls.

Of course, there's no current product with such features.

Thanks.

Lead me to think - is that feature with separate VCF+VCF on each oscillator overrated?
I thought it might be interesting way to build unique timbres.

That design definitely is useful, and having a separate VCF for each VCO is the "correct" way to do it according to some synth/synth chip designers, and they do have a good point. The resulting sound from VCO->VCF + VCO->VCF, as opposed to VCO+VCO->VCF, can be very different (not always preferable, but sometimes yes).

[justin3am]

The V-Synth has a mode in which you can route each 'Oscillator' to it's own COSM block (filters/signal processors). Each oscillator block has 4 envelopes and 1 LFO, each COSM bloack has it's own envelopes and LFO, then there is the global 'TVA' (Time Variant Amplifier) or DCA.
It's an incredibly flexible synth.

[V0RT3X]

The V-Synth has a mode in which you can route each 'Oscillator' to it's own COSM block (filters/signal processors). Each oscillator block has 4 envelopes and 1 LFO, each COSM bloack has it's own envelopes and LFO, then there is the global 'TVA' (Time Variant Amplifier) or DCA.
It's an incredibly flexible synth.

Sounds pretty fun! Also can't you run your own samples through the V-synth engine too??

[SJ_Digriz]

The V-Synth has a mode in which you can route each 'Oscillator' to it's own COSM block (filters/signal processors). Each oscillator block has 4 envelopes and 1 LFO, each COSM bloack has it's own envelopes and LFO, then there is the global 'TVA' (Time Variant Amplifier) or DCA.
It's an incredibly flexible synth.

heresy bringing digital signal processing into the discussion Even if it does sound incredible .. that's not the point.