Best Piano - PIANOTEQ

[Elektronisch]

Seems the test didnt prove pianoteq is the best. Anyhow why not to use just simply well sampled piano library. Ni pianos, ik multimedia imo sound great and convincing and with good midi programing and settings you cant tell the difference.

[EvilDragon]

Because sample libraries don't have the same response to player's touch and footwork Pianoteq has. No matter how well it was sampled or not. Some things simply cannot be done with samples.

[Scotty]

Apart from the playing dynamics,I am often going after "piano like" sounds and the physical models lets you do some crazy stuff that still sounds organic. They have their place.

[fisherKing]

Because sample libraries don't have the same response to player's touch and footwork Pianoteq has. No matter how well it was sampled or not. Some things simply cannot be done with samples.

this is my issue with pianoteq; it's wonderful to play...but doesn't sound definitive. some sample libraries 'sound' better. when i play for the joy of it (maybe once every hundred years... ) i play pianoteq. for recording, i use other sources...

[EvilDragon]

Model B sounds very definitive to this pair of ears, at least.

[aMUSEd]

Because sample libraries don't have the same response to player's touch and footwork Pianoteq has. No matter how well it was sampled or not. Some things simply cannot be done with samples.

this is my issue with pianoteq; it's wonderful to play...but doesn't sound definitive. some sample libraries 'sound' better. when i play for the joy of it (maybe once every hundred years... ) i play pianoteq. for recording, i use other sources...

A sample is a recording of a piano, a recording should sound exactly like a the thing it's a recording of but it's only a snapshot of the moment in time when it was recorded, the problem for me is it doesn't behave like a piano. For me having a playable instrument is more important - it's closer to a piano than a sampled instrument because a piano is not just a sound but a tool for creating sounds expressively.

[fisherKing]

Because sample libraries don't have the same response to player's touch and footwork Pianoteq has. No matter how well it was sampled or not. Some things simply cannot be done with samples.

this is my issue with pianoteq; it's wonderful to play...but doesn't sound definitive. some sample libraries 'sound' better. when i play for the joy of it (maybe once every hundred years... ) i play pianoteq. for recording, i use other sources...

A sample is a recording of a piano, a recording should sound exactly like a the thing it's a recording of but it's only a snapshot of the moment in time when it was recorded, the problem for me is it doesn't behave like a piano. For me having a playable instrument is more important - it's closer to a piano than a sampled instrument because a piano is not just a sound but a tool for creating sounds expressively.

am much more concerned with the sound, since i use the piano in finished recordings. what the listener hears seems more important, and i don't feel i 'suffer' playing a sampled piano over a modeled one.

but it's all relative. no one ever complained that the song they just heard had a modeled piano, not a real one..

[logburner]

Well, excuse me if I hurt some Pianoteq fans feelings with the previous post.

Pianoteq is a great piece of software which is very responsive and clean sounding. Before I played a well tuned brand new grand piano, I didn't understand why some people have strong affection with Pianoteq but I "think" I understand it now.

When it comes to listening to the sound of a virtual piano however, sampled libraries sound more convincing to my ears. I'm guessing that it's because sampled pianos have not only the sound of a piano itself, but also real room ambience, mic and preamp sound, a form of saturation and noise to it, which is closer to what we are used to listening, recordings of pianos. And some people like me find the tone more preferable than Pianoteq. This I find quite true to certain piano libraries like Imperfect Samples stuff and Piano In Blue.

Now I'm very looking forward to Wavesfactory's new Fazioli library "Mercury". It sounds so clean yet holds amazing sense of space with 5 different mic perspectives.

https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/mercury-mic-test
https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/classicaltestaet

[murnau]

Well, excuse me if I hurt some Pianoteq fans feelings with the previous post.

Don't worry: It's clear that ED talk from a versatile player view while you just counter "yada yada yada".

[EvilDragon]

I'm guessing that it's because sampled pianos have not only the sound of a piano itself, but also real room ambience, mic and preamp sound, a form of saturation and noise to it, which is closer to what we are used to listening, recordings of pianos.t

But here's the problem. EVERY SAMPLED NOTE has its own noise floor, its own room ambience, baked in. When you play multiple notes, these things overlap (let's not mention the shit that happens when sustain pedal is pressed, in this case) - and this is completely NOT how things get recorded when micing a real piano, nor how a piano in a room behaves, at all. That's the main problem with samples, and one that simply cannot be eradicated since it's indigenous to the very essence of the procedure of sampling.

[logburner]

I'm guessing that it's because sampled pianos have not only the sound of a piano itself, but also real room ambience, mic and preamp sound, a form of saturation and noise to it, which is closer to what we are used to listening, recordings of pianos.t

But here's the problem. EVERY SAMPLED NOTE has its own noise floor, its own room ambience, baked in. When you play multiple notes, these things overlap (let's not mention the shit that happens when sustain pedal is pressed, in this case) - and this is completely NOT how things get recorded when micing a real piano, nor how a piano in a room behaves, at all. That's the main problem with samples, and one that simply cannot be eradicated since it's indigenous to the very essence of the procedure of sampling.

I agree. The issue of noise and room ambience recorded with each sample becomes more evident in the release stage, where the noise or ambience needs to stay there but fades out into silence together with the piano tone. I often end up using external reverb to obscure the unnatural release phase, but this isn't the most ideal solution.

The thing is, a virtual piano is a virtual piano, which somehow mimics the sound of a piano whether its based on physical modelling or samples, and it's a form of compromise for convenience (be it functionally or financially). What's great about Pianoteq is it does behave and sound like an acoustic piano to a level where some pianists find it comfortable enough with its functions and sound, unlike drum machines which don't sound like acoustic drums.

It's just that my ears are more comfortable with sampled piano libraries for the point of compromise at this point. I do hope for more improvements and advancements in both sampling and physical modelling though.

[oscarolarte]

In no more than two weeks i'm going to test a Real Piano vs the Best Possible configuration of a virtual piano. I'm going to record the WHOLE SESSION with a CANON C-500 and two Senheisser MKH 416 P48, and ideally http://3diosound.com TO TEST from the audition position.

I'm going to test Pianoteq 5 (D4, Blulthner,...) EastWest Pianos, Ivory, and many others vs the real thing in real live conditions.

Gear Used:
1- MacBook Pro 11,3, with SSD, 16GB RAM...
1- Apogee Symphony (2x6 silver model) http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/a ... mphony.htm
2- Adam Audio A7X near field monitors. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug10/a ... am-a7x.htm
4- KH 310 3 way, mid field speakers http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct13/a ... kh310a.htm

In a 600 hundred square m2 stage. I'm going to eq the room (pink noise...and other techniques)

I'm going to invite professional pianists, sound engineers, high quality classic piano brands resellers,and many more to get their advice and testimony.
https://www.klavier.es/categoria/73-pianos-de-cola

I'm going to post the video on youtube and here, to get also your input.

Any advice or help will be very wellcome.

The aim is to get a real world test, and to be as much as faithful we can.

I'm going to run these test in Murcia (Spain)....post me a message if you want to participate.

Thanks all

[oscarolarte]

Sorry, i forgot....the Master Keyboard will be VPC-1 from KWAI

[oscarolarte]

i'm going to test this setup, with A7X near field and 4 KH 310 (instead of 2)

http://82.144.5.101/file/piano/piano_setup.png

Any comments will be very wellcome

[vic_france]

In no more than two weeks i'm going to test a Real Piano vs the Best Possible configuration of a virtual piano.

.. and what is the real piano that will be used?
(a really interesting experiment would be a Yamaha Disklavier.. ideally, the CFXE3 concert .. record the MIDI performance (and the live performance, of course) from there, then use that same MIDI file to trigger the various virtual pianos .)