ILOK seems to be a rip off.

[ghettosynth]

The best part is when Pace has a meltdown and takes everyone with them. It happened once. You going to bet on it never happening again? I'll take my chances with C/R. One manufacturer goes down, there's alternatives. (My DAW/Host is based on a keyfile, but will operate just fine without it if necessary.)

I remember when PACE when down but I wasn't an iLok user then so I don't know all the details. When PACE "goes down" does that affect people with licenses on the iLok? My assumption about it says "no" because the license tokens would be on the iLok key and not have any interaction over the internet with PACE. Is this incorrect? If so how does it actually work?

Nope, this is part of the FUD. It will only affect you if you synchronized your iLoks.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-c ... tware.html

[Dominus]

The best part is when Pace has a meltdown and takes everyone with them. It happened once. You going to bet on it never happening again? I'll take my chances with C/R. One manufacturer goes down, there's alternatives. (My DAW/Host is based on a keyfile, but will operate just fine without it if necessary.)

I remember when PACE when down but I wasn't an iLok user then so I don't know all the details. When PACE "goes down" does that affect people with licenses on the iLok? My assumption about it says "no" because the license tokens would be on the iLok key and not have any interaction over the internet with PACE. Is this incorrect? If so how does it actually work?

Normally it wouldn't, but during the iLokalypse people lost licenses, and some people were without them for weeks.

It was due to a software upgrade.

[ghettosynth]

Incidentally, as part of risk management:

1) always delay your software upgrades on stuff like this for some period of time
2) always unplug your iloks while doing a software upgrade.

[Dominus]

Only because that's what you want to see.

Take a look in the bargain discussion thread right now to see the problems people are having authorizing Circle2. That's yet another reason why I prefer iLok. I know before I even install the synth whether or not it's authorized because I just look in the iLok manager.

You do understand that the iLok itself *is* a one time Challenge/Response, right?

The underlying mechanism behind the security protocol is irrelevant to this discussion and isn't where the value is derived, so, your attempt at equivocation is meaningless. The issue is twofold, first, incompetent devs, which is what we're seeing with circle2, means that there is a high probability of having some problem when your issues are spread across many distinct vendors. No software is perfect, however, this is what Pace does. However, the big issue for me is that I don't want authorizations stored on my hard drive or linked to my computer. So, in that sense, iLok is nothing like C/R. I even prefer waves to most C/R for the same reason, the license is stored on a USB key.

This isn't about a pedantic discussion over whether one type of security is a degenerate version of another, it's about the practical concerns of dealing with licensing

I'm not sure what people's goal is here. iLok works really well for me. It works really well for the majority of users. You aren't going to convince someone who's thought this through with a big scarey FUD story. When you start talking about "the meltdown", you are still talking about some probability of failure. Most users have never had problems with the iLok, even with the "meltdown." Most everyone I know has had some problem with C/R software. So, worrying about some potential rare catastrophic event with an exceedingly low probability of happening isn't something that I bother with. It's like worrying about dying in an airplane crash, yes it can happen, but it generally doesn't.

If it does happen, I'll deal with it, and I'll only have to deal with Pace.

Now, what is more likely, is that a hard drive will fail or your OS will take a shit on it, and you will have to deal with all of your vendors. So, wishful thinking that C/R eliminates the single point of failure is not only false, but it has a much higher probability of happening than does an iLok meltdown.

First - you brought up Circle. That's a one time thing, by a single vendor. The same thing can happen with the iLok, but I wasn't blaming Pace for that one. Just pointing out that things can happen like that, and the iLok *does not* prevent that.

As for incompetent devs? By that, I hope you're including Pace. As stated in my previous response, their meltdown was due to a software upgrade.

But sure, let's break that down.

One vendor goes under. Your software from them will work until it doesn't. By then, hopefully, you've found an alternative.

A boot hard drive fails. You're going to be reinstalling everything as it is, and spending hours, maybe even days getting it back up and running. Even with the iLok, you're still going to have to chase down all the installers from that. A lot of times you're going to have to find your login/password for the dev's site to do that. Going through my "software" folder in my E-Mail for C/R stuff would be something that I'd have to do anyway with the stuff that I have with the iLok. The benefit there is negligible.

As for "FUD" story. GTFO. You know that happened. Just because you weren't affected doesn't mean that it's not on people's minds. That was a mindnumbingly spectacular failure. Because people lost *everything* on their iLoks due to a software update. For some people, it was corrected within a few days, but for others, they were down for a few weeks. For a hobbyist like me, that would have been frustrating. If that was how I made my money.. I can't imagine how livid I'd be.

As for only dealing with Pace? Yeah. That thread on GS was the best read I ever had online. I only have a few things on my iLok, but if they ever stopped working, I'd write them off.

[Dominus]

Incidentally, as part of risk management:

1) always delay your software upgrades on stuff like this for some period of time
2) always unplug your iloks while doing a software upgrade.

1 - Sure, let everyone else be the guinea pigs. The only problem with that is if you had happened to buy a new plugin. At that time you might have seen an update for the iLok software when you're logging in for your license. Who's going to wait when they have that new shiny be all, end all plugin to install? I mean, it's just a update for the iLok, what harm can it do?

2 - Umm, part of the software update means that you plug in your iLok and synchronize it, unless they changed it after that fiasco. (I wouldn't know, I haven't updated since then. My few licenses work, and I've already found alternative plugins.)

[ghettosynth]

First - you brought up Circle. That's a one time thing, by a single vendor.

Yes, a vendor who's first task isn't writing security software. The reliability of C/R authors is all over the place. You can't talk about one time things all you want, I can rattle off a dozen one time things that I've experienced personally. Everything from authorization servers no longer running to tech support not answering requests until the after the holidays.

Clearly you don't understand how while putting your eggs in many baskets minimizes the chance of everything failing, maximizes the chance that something will fail. That is, putting one's eggs in a reasonably reliable basket actually minimizes the hassle.

Once the license is on the iLok, there's very little external that will interfere with that. I can install the software on any number of machines without having to deal with an authorization process.

The same thing can happen with the iLok, but I wasn't blaming Pace for that one. Just pointing out that things can happen like that, and the iLok *does not* prevent that.

And I never claimed that it did, making your entire point, a non-point. However, it isn't "the same thing", it's a "related thing" or a "similar thing." The same thing would mean that each vendor uses a different set of tools to work with iLok, they don't, they use a common set of tools, so, it is less likely. You are quick to point out the downsides of a single basket but you seem completely ignorant to the advantages.

A boot hard drive fails. You're going to be reinstalling everything as it is, and spending hours, maybe even days getting it back up and running. Even with the iLok, you're still going to have to chase down all the installers from that.

Nope, you're wrong. I'm going to reinstall to an new drive from my backup, you know what those are, right? You know what happens then? That's right, all of my iLok software just works, and all of my C/R software doesn't. I'm now going to have to spend days trying to resolve each unique C/R process.

Do know what happens next, pretty much all C/R software that doesn't have a major management application, like NI, goes away. It's why I tend to avoid C/R software.

As for "FUD" story. GTFO. You know that happened. Just because you weren't affected doesn't mean that it's not on people's minds. That was a mindnumbingly spectacular failure.

It was, but, to use it as an example of why one shouldn't use iLok demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of probability and risk. By using it as an argument, you are spreading FUD. That's the definition of FUD.

Again, nobody cares if you don't like iLok, but, if you want to convince people who have more developed thoughts on this than you do that iLok is a bad choice, you are going to need a better argument than a bit of FUD.

[ghettosynth]

Incidentally, as part of risk management:

1) always delay your software upgrades on stuff like this for some period of time
2) always unplug your iloks while doing a software upgrade.

1 - Sure, let everyone else be the guinea pigs. The only problem with that is if you had happened to buy a new plugin. At that time you might have seen an update for the iLok software when you're logging in for your license. Who's going to wait when they have that new shiny be all, end all plugin to install? I mean, it's just a update for the iLok, what harm can it do?

I have that discipline, clearly you are willing to be a guinea pig. Seems like a win/win to me.

2 - Umm, part of the software update means that you plug in your iLok and synchronize it, unless they changed it after that fiasco. (I wouldn't know, I haven't updated since then. My few licenses work, and I've already found alternative plugins.)

Since you can have multiple iLoks, this, of course, isn't necessary to update the software. It's just that you are following the instructions and don't think things through.

[rifftrax]

A boot hard drive fails. You're going to be reinstalling everything as it is, and spending hours, maybe even days getting it back up and running. Even with the iLok, you're still going to have to chase down all the installers from that.

Nope, you're wrong. I'm going to reinstall to an new drive from my backup, you know what those are, right? You know what happens then? That's right, all of my iLok software just works, and all of my C/R software doesn't. I'm now going to have to spend days trying to resolve each unique C/R process.

Lol. The amount of people that don't do images or know how to alternately create a vhd is astonishing:
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sys ... 56415.aspx

If you need something larger than 127gb, get Win8/10 Pro and enable Hyper-V and create an image that way:
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/can ... ndows-8-1/

Or hell, clonezilla or aomei or so many other utilities. This isn't rocket science guys. If you're doing serious production you should know how to do essential sys admin stuff. And to add weight to what another person mentioned... don't update your client software just because you see an update. Read the version release notes and if nothing is mentioned about an actual security flaw don't update. Wait a few months. You know damn well from Microsoft's business model that being part of a "pilot" program is often a bad idea unless you specifically enjoy beta testing.

Look, I'll mention on top of all of this that iLok isn't no more unicorns and roses than anything else. I'm in the process of selling something on marketplace at the moment where UVI transferred a license that doesn't support desktop activation (i.e. the buyer needs an iLok key). I didn't think to double-check this and UVI's email to the seller was prefaced with "hopefully the buyer told you this in advance" and well I didn't. Bit of a pain in the ass but honestly it's my fault so I'm still not going to blame iLok even though it's frustrating.

[Dominus]

A boot hard drive fails. You're going to be reinstalling everything as it is, and spending hours, maybe even days getting it back up and running. Even with the iLok, you're still going to have to chase down all the installers from that.

Nope, you're wrong. I'm going to reinstall to an new drive from my backup, you know what those are, right? You know what happens then? That's right, all of my iLok software just works, and all of my C/R software doesn't. I'm now going to have to spend days trying to resolve each unique C/R process.

Lol. The amount of people that don't do images or know how to alternately create a vhd is astonishing:
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sys ... 56415.aspx

If you need something larger than 127gb, get Win8/10 Pro and enable Hyper-V and create an image that way:
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/can ... ndows-8-1/

Or hell, clonezilla or aomei or so many other utilities. This isn't rocket science guys. If you're doing serious production you should know how to do essential sys admin stuff. And to add weight to what another person mentioned... don't update your client software just because you see an update. Read the version release notes and if nothing is mentioned about an actual security flaw don't update. Wait a few months. You know damn well from Microsoft's business model that being part of a "pilot" program is often a bad idea unless you specifically enjoy beta testing.

Actually, I have backup clones of *all* my drives, not just the boot drive. But not everyone does that. A failing hard drive for me can be replaced and I'll be back up and running in short order. I've also done a number of boot drive clones and system upgrades over the years, and my C/R stuff hasn't seemed to break yet. Maybe it's a little more lenient than people think.

[ghettosynth]

A boot hard drive fails. You're going to be reinstalling everything as it is, and spending hours, maybe even days getting it back up and running. Even with the iLok, you're still going to have to chase down all the installers from that.

Nope, you're wrong. I'm going to reinstall to an new drive from my backup, you know what those are, right? You know what happens then? That's right, all of my iLok software just works, and all of my C/R software doesn't. I'm now going to have to spend days trying to resolve each unique C/R process.

Lol. The amount of people that don't do images or know how to alternately create a vhd is astonishing:
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sys ... 56415.aspx

If you need something larger than 127gb, get Win8/10 Pro and enable Hyper-V and create an image that way:
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/can ... ndows-8-1/

Or hell, clonezilla or aomei or so many other utilities. This isn't rocket science guys. If you're doing serious production you should know how to do essential sys admin stuff. And to add weight to what another person mentioned... don't update your client software just because you see an update. Read the version release notes and if nothing is mentioned about an actual security flaw don't update. Wait a few months. You know damn well from Microsoft's business model that being part of a "pilot" program is often a bad idea unless you specifically enjoy beta testing.

Actually, I have backup clones of *all* my drives, not just the boot drive. But not everyone does that. A failing hard drive for me can be replaced and I'll be back up and running in short order. I've also done a number of boot drive clones and system upgrades over the years, and my C/R stuff hasn't seemed to break yet. Maybe it's a little more lenient than people think.

Generally, if you replace hardware, your C/R software breaks. Some are more strict than others. I've had it break for just changing hardware in the system. Try this with a replaced motherboard or any case where you have to reinstall your O/S but you restore your data/plugins from backup. Your C/R software won't work.

Again, the replacement time for the O/S is fixed, but plugins generally don't have to be "installed." The worst case is that you have to install some Microsoft runtime libraries. I have close to 100 licenses on my iLok. Imagine if I had 100 C/R licenses not managed by something like NI's software where I just log into my account and authorize everything.

This is why I actually want my eggs in few baskets and why NI, Waves, and anyone using either iLok or eLicenser get the edge. I also like software that allows portable installs like Reaper and Mulab. I'll deal with my DAW needing reinstallation, but not 100 to 200 plugins.

[maschinelf]

Hey, need some help here. I had an ilok 2 for a few years but never checked or used it. Now I decided to move my uvi licenses to the dongle, but realized upon connecting it that it was already registered to another user. Ilok support described an overly complex method for reassignment, which also includes a $100 reassignment fee. So obviously it just makes more sense to buy a new one.

Now I found someone selling one 2nd hand, which he says was never registered. He sent me a screenshot of the license manager, which displays the message "connected ilok is not registered" in a yellow box, when not signed in. However, it does have one activation, for Pro Tools Express Akai Professional/M-Audio Edition Primer. My unusable ilok also included the same license, but I am travelling right now so I can't check whether that displays the same "connected ilok is not registered" when not signed in. So what I want to know is whether thst msg means that the ilok is not registered at all. Can someone check what message their registered ilok displays when they are not signed in to the manager. Thanks!

[maschinelf]

Here are the screenshots:

[flakes2]

Most challange-response copy protection systems only allow an installation on a single computer. If you change the harddisc or the mainboard it usually stops working.

On installation Ilok itself replaces windows (!) runtime libraries with a custom version. As a result hardware breakpoints can not longer be set. This should make cracking more difficult. A negative side effect is that various other software can crash when an ilok protected plugin is loaded.
I experienced this with firefox and visual studio.
The crashes disappeared as soon as i uninstalled ilok/pace

[elxsound]

Both you, rifftrax and ghettosynth keep saying the same thing about updates and YES I DO AGREE, BUT... iLok makes this difficult especially once you've bought a new plugin that requires iLok. To use the new plugin, or even to demo some plugins, you are forced to upgrade. On the plus side, users are usually vocal so a quick online search would reveal any major issues before upgrading.

I have quite a few iLok plugins. I hate the system (and have said so for years), but I understand why some both love it and have a need for it.

What happens when license are irretrievable due to iLok hardware failure, or computer failure for soft licenses has always been a concern of mine, and with ZDT I consider it a major rip off.

Despite that, I also understand that developers want to protect their shit, without devoting excessive time to security which in itself could be just as, or more demanding a task than developing their products.

-----

My request... Since iLok will continue to exist, and since they do get paid by the developer for their security method, is that they develop more consumer friendly support for lost or broken iLoks (physical) or lost soft licenses in the event of computer failure.

I would love to boycott them as way of showing my displeasure of their practices, but I use the stuff I buy, so its not an option for me.

[Harry_HH]

Hey, need some help here. I had an ilok 2 for a few years but never checked or used it. Now I decided to move my uvi licenses to the dongle, but realized upon connecting it that it was already registered to another user. Ilok support described an overly complex method for reassignment, which also includes a $100 reassignment fee. So obviously it just makes more sense to buy a new one.

Now I found someone selling one 2nd hand, which he says was never registered. He sent me a screenshot of the license manager, which displays the message "connected ilok is not registered" in a yellow box, when not signed in. However, it does have one activation, for Pro Tools Express Akai Professional/M-Audio Edition Primer. My unusable ilok also included the same license, but I am travelling right now so I can't check whether that displays the same "connected ilok is not registered" when not signed in. So what I want to know is whether thst msg means that the ilok is not registered at all. Can someone check what message their registered ilok displays when they are not signed in to the manager. Thanks!

Where did you get that $100 fee? I merged my two iLok accounts including about 50 different licensies 3 months ago, if I remember correctly, it costed totally $ 30-50. Took some time&nerves, but I have now all the lics in one dongle. BTW, some lic.transfers need the developer acceptance, too. I certainly have had my own battles with the PACE - its like Lennon's words, "Its so hard": when its good, its oh so good, but but it's so hard, it's really hard...