About that cakewalk email that should be in your inboxes right now

[jancivil]

I'm actually glad they are sticking with Windows. Cubase going to a "common" approach for OSX and Windows has totally f**ked up the GUI on Windows. What they really mean is they will spend a little time trying to figure out how to get the GUI to somewhat work on Windows. As a OS-X hater, it annoys the shit out of me to have a Windows app that follows the interface rules of a MAC.

This is the way it's going. NI has solidly moved to Mac first. Remember when Replika came out and all these problems on Windows, all GUI-oriented? No problem on Mac. I don't know anything really about it, the other side of it is VSL talks about the pitfalls of the OS X graphics system and it still comes after their Windows port.

Windows always been a fugly GUI, they had to start imitating OS X, it was just too hideous even for them.

Mac Cubase people always bemoaned the afterthought aspect of it all, good for the gander too, sure.

[SJ_Digriz]

Windows always been a fugly GUI, they had to start imitating OS X, it was just too hideous even for them.

Taking Metro out of the equation, I actually dramatically prefer the Windows GUI since Win7. I also vastly prefer the window management approach, and the toolbar management approach on windows.

Most of the problem even before Win 7 revolved around the horrible misuse of the MDI spec for application creation. All the stupid modal popups and either orphaned or state locking child windows were never intended. I've always thought it was because dev was so easy on windows, and modal popups and focus stealing child windows were part of every code example. But, those were never correct implementations for a complex interface app.

[jancivil]

I didn't do anything on Windows except try to run Cubase and internet.
Except I had to do some graphics on Vista in the U of Az library because their Macs were so badly set up.
I just found the color scheme and the graphics in and of themselves really ugly. Vista was the first shot at appropriating things from OS X. It looked a little better. I don't know anything about function and the why of it all, I'd just rather launch Mac OS because it doesn't hurt my eyes, going back to 10.2 in 2005 or 2004.

I cleaned up my pal's BF's W7 computer, that were still fugly.

[SJ_Digriz]

lol, well preference aside I think the point is that when developers start supporting both platforms for applications that utilize a lot of the OS architecture, it is very difficult for them to have a unified code base. It's a lot harder than people think it is to support both. I've recently alleviated the problem of having to support cross platform code. But, it was always fun to spend 10x more hours to get something to work for 8 people than we did for the other 1k+ users.

[chk071]

I'm actually glad they are sticking with Windows. Cubase going to a "common" approach for OSX and Windows has totally f**ked up the GUI on Windows. What they really mean is they will spend a little time trying to figure out how to get the GUI to somewhat work on Windows. As a OS-X hater, it annoys the shit out of me to have a Windows app that follows the interface rules of a MAC. I can't even f'n alt+tab through the god damned project anymore. And I have this f'n stupid banner bar across the top of my screen that serves no purpose other than take up space. Those and a dozen other craptastic Macisms.

I have something weird with Cubase since 2 versions, and that's that i see the desktop, when i open it, while usually, there was a grey background. And when i minimize the Cubase window, i still see top bar. Wonder if that's normal, a bug here, or the thing you mentioned. The interesting thing is, the 32-bit version of Cubase 8.5, which i also have installed, doesn't have this, works "normal", as it always was (and i'm sure that the 64-bit version of Cubase 8.5 had the exact same thing i described, when i had it installed...).

If I remember right, there is a setting that gives you the blank background when a project isn't open. But, off the top of my head I don't recall where it is.

I'll check the options. Maybe i did change something there i'm not aware of. I don't think i have this thing on my laptop either, so, it is probably really something i changed. On the other hand, it was present both in Cubase 8.5, and in Cubase 9, so i must have changed it in both. Weird weird.

Edit: Ok, so i found out that, if you have Cubase "minimized" (it still shows the menu bar when minimized...), you can double click the menu bar, and then, instead of showing the desktop, it shows Cubase's grey background again. Obviously, you can't fully minimize Cubase, but have to switch programs with Alt + Tab to get to the other program, without Cubase's menu bar on top. So, i guess it's by design. Strange indeed. Funnily, Cubase closes down much faster now with the grey background too...

[fmr]

I remember Magix also announced intentios to port Samplitude to Mac OS and later changed their minds and gave up of that.

It seems to me it is very complicated to support Mac OS X, with its constant updates, and changes of direction. Even for those that are already there. For newcomers, it would be a nightmare. And porting a mature and full featured application as a DAW is, with lots of lines of legacy code, and one that is so intrinsically connected to the OS as SONAR is, would be a task for several years.

The return for such a huge task would have to be in the order of millions, to justify such work.

[AndreasH]

Image Line first try getting FL Studio into Mac (via Wrapper), was a failure too. But they learned their lesson and now they are doing it native.
I'm wondering about a company like cakewalk (with Gibson in the back) did really tried it with CrossOver (win/mac converting tool) without give it a shot on a less complex, timing sensitive and full packed with 3rd Party Plugins, Software before.

[SJ_Digriz]

I remember Magix also announced intentios to port Samplitude to Mac OS and later changed their minds and gave up of that.

It seems to me it is very complicated to support Mac OS X, with its constant updates, and changes of direction. Even for those that are already there. For newcomers, it would be a nightmare. And porting a mature and full featured application as a DAW is, with lots of lines of legacy code, and one that is so intrinsically connected to the OS as SONAR is, would be a task for several years.

The return for such a huge task would have to be in the order of millions, to justify such work.

To be fare, even though I'm not a fan of the interface, I'm not sure OS-X is significantly more difficult to support than Windows if at all. Programs that support low latency audio and video and other OS core functions have to be optimized for a specific OS. This optimization and architecture choice stuff is very, very different between the two platforms. So, if a programmer is awesome at OS-X low level optimization, they will probably be soso on Windows trying to do the same thing and may even make bad choices, or be frustrated by something that is easy on OS-X. And, obviously vice versa.

[SJ_Digriz]

I guess what I'm saying is that the idea of having a unified code base for applications that need so much low level OS integration is a pipe dream. Works great for simple applications that can reside on a framework and pass data around with little or no realtime constraints. Works horrible when you have to start doing OS specific tweaks. Just ask the companies that try to support the same game on X-Box, PC, Playstation and Wii ... notice OS-X isn't listed most of the time, although happening more and more often. Each requires an independent development team + a managing game development team that can conform the game across platforms. Games are often crippled on specific platforms due to a feature that is on another.

For Cubase we've ended up with a UI that works like shit on Windows, has z order issues (which window is on top) on both platforms, has command pass thru problems on both platforms etc.. etc.. And, it doesn't look these things will ever be fixed because of the complexity of trying to do it for two OS's. At least that's how it seems to me.

So basically, I think it's better to have a small team focused on a specific platform, or give up the unified concept and create Sonar Mac and Sonar Win. Agree on features to be added, but quit trying to manage the code bases. Just have separate groups and products.

[jancivil]

lol, well preference aside I think the point is that when developers start supporting both platforms for applications that utilize a lot of the OS architecture, it is very difficult for them to have a unified code base. It's a lot harder than people think it is to support both. I've recently alleviated the problem of having to support cross platform code. But, it was always fun to spend 10x more hours to get something to work for 8 people than we did for the other 1k+ users.

Heh. Yeah, Cubase is better on Mac than it ever was, so too bad for y'all.
VSL has slightly more problems on Mac I believe. VE Pro 6 either needs more computer than my MBP or it's buggy.

I was skeptical about this port to Mac, I wouldn't have bought it even if I really desired it. DP to Windows as well.
I'm wait-and-see anyway. My upgrade to Cubase Pro 9 was from Cubase 5, alright. I'd have liked the world to stop at 2011 in some ways. But I got a couple computers with the newer OSs and the old stuff won't fly.

[jancivil]

For Cubase we've ended up with a UI that works like shit on Windows, has z order issues (which window is on top) on both platforms, has command pass thru problems on both platforms etc.. etc..

Huh. It seems like to me this preference 'always on top' for plugins, which I go with, works and it's the same as it was in Cubase 5. But I do not have complicated ways. Dbl-click audio in project gets Sample Editor/Parts Editor, disappears by 'enter'. Pool is Command-P. I focus on Project Window by clicking on it. Mixer appears by F3 as usual.

I'm experiencing this ridiculous problem, changes to a plugin aren't registering as edits to undo them. Is that like your 'command pass thru'? I was going to blame VSL for not updating the things I use. Or in the case their plugins will not do anything in audio editors is both party's fault I think.

[machinesworking]

For Cubase we've ended up with a UI that works like shit on Windows, has z order issues (which window is on top) on both platforms, has command pass thru problems on both platforms etc.. etc.. And, it doesn't look these things will ever be fixed because of the complexity of trying to do it for two OS's. At least that's how it seems to me.

Live works the same on either platform, DP seems to either work or not on Windows, but when it does people are happy. Steinberg are known for being future thinking, implementing new concepts first etc. but bug free? never been known for that! Any GUI issues people are having on Windows are nothing compared to the latency issues people had for years on Mac. Seriously though, Ableton pulled it off, it's not impossible, and once people configure and work out any issues on the Windows version of DP they report no more bugs on forums than the mac side.

I'm just happy my two main DAWs DP and Live are both cross platform. I modified an old Mac Pro to last for another few years, but tossing together a PC for the studio might happen next time now that both DAWs are able to run on PCs. Plus the vocalist I work with uses a PC with Live and I can toss him works in progress without printing everything end to end. I also do not notice any lack of features that these DAWs have as compared to Sonar or Logic. If these two platform devout DAWs were miles above the rest I could see it, but even crash wise I don't think that's the case.

[machinesworking]

I honestly think Cakewalk hasn't got a clue what they are doing, and it's been like this for a long, long time. They keep changing things all the time, bouncing around from one idea to another. For example the subscription model (yes it was) to the lifetime updates, to the new pricing model that gives users of any version of SONAR older than and including X3 no upgrade discount from May 1. They are working on a Mac version, which was accompanied by much noise and fanfare, now it's gone. It's like they don't know where they are going, have no direction and are just desperately clutching at straws trying to stay in the game.

Hate bringing this up, but it's not unfair to point out that Cakewalk was bought by Gibson, who destroyed Opcode. I hope the best for Cakewalk, but that's a hell of a legacy Gibson have under their belt. People still get emotional about Studio Vision being slaughtered.

[trtzbass]

You'll start seeing a new Cakewalk emerge from this.

I very much hope so. I LOVE Sonar and would like to see it thrive and become the platform it deserves to be.
I have bought the lifetime subscription even if I'm using another DAW because I chose to support the software I like. I have faith that in good time Sonar will become the tool I'd rather use.
Also it seems to me you guys are a hard working unit and deserve support.

My perception is that at this moment in time, Cakewalk is at a turning point and I'm sure very good things will emerge from it.
It seems to me that this would be the perfect time for you to send us users a questionnaire; we all are end users of your software and have opinions about how we perceive it, what we would see improved, how we see the brand, what our workflow is, etc.
If you truly want to create Cakewalk 2.0 as I think you're saying, we'd love to help!

For the record, I applaud your openness in dealing with the termination of the Sonar MAC operation. It takes some balls to do that. Kudos.

Ask us questions

[SJ_Digriz]

I'm experiencing this ridiculous problem, changes to a plugin aren't registering as edits to undo them. Is that like your 'command pass thru'? I was going to blame VSL for not updating the things I use. Or in the case their plugins will not do anything in audio editors is both party's fault I think.

Yes, this is one behavior caused by this. Now, open a mixer on a 2nd monitor and try to keep it on top There are dozens of ways to cause it to hide with no way to bring it back to the top other than closing and reopening. There used to be an always on top flag for mixers, but it got removed.

Try being on the mixconsole and execute a project window command. It simply wont happen, even though there is no duplicate commands to worry about. Try changing the view of the mixconsole while the project is in focus. Nope, that don't work either. Just two simple examples This worked perfectly until the new Mixconsole arrived. So, 6 years and counting and key command focus is still f**ked up. I guess multi-monitor users are more affected than most. But, it doesn't work equally well on one monitor