Learning to write better chord progressions - (modern) r&b and soul
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 349 posts since 13 Oct, 2015
hey, i recently tried to get into songwriting a bit more, and wanna improve my ability to write interesting chord progressions. Usually when i wrote a song so far, it was based on sampling/interesting sound design to which i wrote mostly "cookie-cutter" chords just by trying out stuff rather than sitting at the keyboard and coming up with something that can stand on its own. Sure, you can always try around and u will stumble on something, but I wanna learn to approach it in a more technical/structured manner. I'm ok at music theory in general and can read notes well, but I have no idea about the more "jazzy" and "r&b"-type chords/progressions and what sounds good together.
I know this is a bit general, but can you recommend any learning sources, like books, youtube channels that focus on this type of songwriting? or maybe have tips yourself?
linking some references here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XClvMMxBg1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DswZ0q5sJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq-wjteBDTo
I know this is a bit general, but can you recommend any learning sources, like books, youtube channels that focus on this type of songwriting? or maybe have tips yourself?
linking some references here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XClvMMxBg1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DswZ0q5sJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq-wjteBDTo
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- KVRist
- 60 posts since 25 Feb, 2017
Hey worldfever,
check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmAhnNyMtGk
Hope this will help you, I learned a lot from it.
check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmAhnNyMtGk
Hope this will help you, I learned a lot from it.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 1 Nov, 2011 from Japan
Rather than learning Big "Phat" Chords. It is important to understand that R&B chord can be simply constructed by using "borrowed" chords. Borrowed chord often give the R&B or Neo Soul tension feel.
E.g. Play Fmaj9th, then Bbmin7th, Abmaj7th then Gbmaj7th. The last three chords can fit the same key however the Fmaj is borrowed which gives it that soulful vibe.
More examples below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grY0KpVs-3Y
E.g. Play Fmaj9th, then Bbmin7th, Abmaj7th then Gbmaj7th. The last three chords can fit the same key however the Fmaj is borrowed which gives it that soulful vibe.
More examples below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grY0KpVs-3Y
Neo Soul Production http://soulful-keys.com
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- KVRAF
- 2368 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
My personal opinion is that the best way to approach this sort of thing is to look at the chords used in songs that you like, as well as the standards. And look at other genres too!
There tend to be certain "tricks" used to make a certain genre sound the way it does, from the blue note in blues, to the devil's interval in a lot of metal, to the liberal use of 7ths and more in jazz/house/soul etc.
You already know what your favourite songs sound like - but do you know how they are composed in terms of chords progressions? If not, that's normally a good place to start. In the age of the internet, it's normally pretty easy to find chord progressions online. And if you can't, figuring stuff out yourself is really good practice.
Another thing I would recommend you do is to take a song from another genre, and play it in a different style. This often involves taking the basic chords and imparting them with the flavour of the genre you are going for. For example, I like playing Smells Like Teen Spirit and Wonderwall as piano lounge jazz. That means extending the chords, changing the rhythm etc. etc. So, for example, the A7sus4 in Wonderwall becomes an A11. In your case, I'd suggest you mess around with something from a different genre, and make it sound like R&B. If you can do that, it means you've understood what makes a genre sound the way it does.
And in general, I'd just make sure you analyse music you hear. Try and figure out the chords by ear, even if it's just major vs minor to start with. Play lots of different songs, and notice how there are certain ideas that are reused a lot. Take those ideas, and make them your own. It's also, IMO, a great idea to look at songs written by good songwriters, even if they're not necessarily your cup of tea. The Beatles, Queen and Bowie, are good examples of pop music songwriters who will often do something a little bit more interesting than just another 3/4 chord song, for example.
That's not to say you shouldn't also pursue a more academic approach to music theory. But I believe that writing music is a practical endeavour, so you really only learn it by doing it. The theory can make things easier/quicker/more efficient and guide you. But it's still about taking what's in your head and translating that into notes in the real world, and that simply takes practice. Having reference songs, so you can hear what the chord changes in your head are, is a real boon in this context.
There tend to be certain "tricks" used to make a certain genre sound the way it does, from the blue note in blues, to the devil's interval in a lot of metal, to the liberal use of 7ths and more in jazz/house/soul etc.
You already know what your favourite songs sound like - but do you know how they are composed in terms of chords progressions? If not, that's normally a good place to start. In the age of the internet, it's normally pretty easy to find chord progressions online. And if you can't, figuring stuff out yourself is really good practice.
Another thing I would recommend you do is to take a song from another genre, and play it in a different style. This often involves taking the basic chords and imparting them with the flavour of the genre you are going for. For example, I like playing Smells Like Teen Spirit and Wonderwall as piano lounge jazz. That means extending the chords, changing the rhythm etc. etc. So, for example, the A7sus4 in Wonderwall becomes an A11. In your case, I'd suggest you mess around with something from a different genre, and make it sound like R&B. If you can do that, it means you've understood what makes a genre sound the way it does.
And in general, I'd just make sure you analyse music you hear. Try and figure out the chords by ear, even if it's just major vs minor to start with. Play lots of different songs, and notice how there are certain ideas that are reused a lot. Take those ideas, and make them your own. It's also, IMO, a great idea to look at songs written by good songwriters, even if they're not necessarily your cup of tea. The Beatles, Queen and Bowie, are good examples of pop music songwriters who will often do something a little bit more interesting than just another 3/4 chord song, for example.
That's not to say you shouldn't also pursue a more academic approach to music theory. But I believe that writing music is a practical endeavour, so you really only learn it by doing it. The theory can make things easier/quicker/more efficient and guide you. But it's still about taking what's in your head and translating that into notes in the real world, and that simply takes practice. Having reference songs, so you can hear what the chord changes in your head are, is a real boon in this context.
Voted KVR's resident drunk Robert Smith impersonator (thanks Frantz!)
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2myYesRBRgQB3LkZzEYdt5 | https://soundcloud.com/steevm/
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2myYesRBRgQB3LkZzEYdt5 | https://soundcloud.com/steevm/
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- KVRer
- 2 posts since 10 Dec, 2017
Hi There
I think sometimes when it comes to songwriting you can put too much emphasis on chords as opposed to melody.
You often find yourself humming a tune on the radio before exploring lyrics and chords that make up a song.
I have been guilty in the past of trying to cram too many chords into a song, leaving the melody dissjointed.
I now find songwriting easier when I find a chord progression I like, without over complicationg it, and then huming a melody that fits nicely over the chords.
Lastly I add lyrics, I find this is the best method for myself, with maybe no more that 6 chords in total.
Listeners tend to focus on melody, and some of the best songs ever written have only 3 chords, think The Beatles, Dylan etc.
Hope this helps.
I think sometimes when it comes to songwriting you can put too much emphasis on chords as opposed to melody.
You often find yourself humming a tune on the radio before exploring lyrics and chords that make up a song.
I have been guilty in the past of trying to cram too many chords into a song, leaving the melody dissjointed.
I now find songwriting easier when I find a chord progression I like, without over complicationg it, and then huming a melody that fits nicely over the chords.
Lastly I add lyrics, I find this is the best method for myself, with maybe no more that 6 chords in total.
Listeners tend to focus on melody, and some of the best songs ever written have only 3 chords, think The Beatles, Dylan etc.
Hope this helps.
- KVRer
- 9 posts since 18 Jul, 2017
Hi,
You can try The Prog Machine iOS app. It allows you to generate more than 900 different chord progressions.
https://www.leverkuhnapps.com/post/1668 ... og-machine
Also, you can try GetProg. Another iOS app to play chord progressions with just one finger.
https://www.leverkuhnapps.com/post/168782107744/getpro
If you are interested in any of these apps, let me know. I will give you a code for FREE download.
You can try The Prog Machine iOS app. It allows you to generate more than 900 different chord progressions.
https://www.leverkuhnapps.com/post/1668 ... og-machine
Also, you can try GetProg. Another iOS app to play chord progressions with just one finger.
https://www.leverkuhnapps.com/post/168782107744/getpro
If you are interested in any of these apps, let me know. I will give you a code for FREE download.
The Prog Machine. Chord Progressions App http://apple.co/2lwOa4a
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Straight2Vinyl Straight2Vinyl https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=395170
- KVRist
- 336 posts since 10 Mar, 2017
Yep, if you really want to write great songs and not just put together a beat, start with a melody. If you're making instrumentals for hip-hop artists, then it's easier to get away with messing with drums and chords first, but writing a traditional pop/r & b/funk/soul/jazz /rock etc. song is best started with a melody. I've been getting away from samples myself in the past year and it's been quite rewarding so far. The better I get at playing keyboards and understand theory, the faster and better the results.Muso Goodshot wrote:Hi There
I think sometimes when it comes to songwriting you can put too much emphasis on chords as opposed to melody.
You often find yourself humming a tune on the radio before exploring lyrics and chords that make up a song.
I have been guilty in the past of trying to cram too many chords into a song, leaving the melody dissjointed.
I now find songwriting easier when I find a chord progression I like, without over complicationg it, and then huming a melody that fits nicely over the chords.
Lastly I add lyrics, I find this is the best method for myself, with maybe no more that 6 chords in total.
Listeners tend to focus on melody, and some of the best songs ever written have only 3 chords, think The Beatles, Dylan etc.
Hope this helps.
The journey really is as enjoyable as the destination.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 11 May, 2008
Most has been done, but regarding songwriting I'll add that I believe Jimmy Webb's Tunesmith is the best book out there in terms of detail in how to explain someone's musical practice and why and how he does things and why and how he avoids things.
https://www.amazon.com/Tunesmith-Inside ... 0786884886
Curiously he prefers to start by the lyrics, because the lyrics shape the structure and shape the melody and therefore will constrain the chord progression. Also most materials derive from the semantic content of the lyrics.
If you start by a chord progression you are already constraining your possibilities of melody, and then you are already constraining a lot your lyrics and worse: you risk ending up with a juxtaposition instead of a song by just hammering words to fit your pre-composed chords/melody.
How many so-called songs are out there in which the musical materials have no discernable relation at all with the lyrics?
So think what is the most important think in a song, or at least, in the songs you like and want to do. And then organize the steps according to that hierarchy.
https://www.amazon.com/Tunesmith-Inside ... 0786884886
Curiously he prefers to start by the lyrics, because the lyrics shape the structure and shape the melody and therefore will constrain the chord progression. Also most materials derive from the semantic content of the lyrics.
If you start by a chord progression you are already constraining your possibilities of melody, and then you are already constraining a lot your lyrics and worse: you risk ending up with a juxtaposition instead of a song by just hammering words to fit your pre-composed chords/melody.
How many so-called songs are out there in which the musical materials have no discernable relation at all with the lyrics?
So think what is the most important think in a song, or at least, in the songs you like and want to do. And then organize the steps according to that hierarchy.
Play fair and square!
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Well, a decision such as 'what chords shall I use' is contextual. "Listeners tend to focus on melody" is a reduction and it rather seems to work to justify your taste here, rather than address 'writing better chord progressions'.Muso Goodshot wrote: I think sometimes when it comes to songwriting you can put too much emphasis on chords as opposed to melody.
You often find yourself humming a tune on the radio before exploring lyrics and chords that make up a song.
I have been guilty in the past of trying to cram too many chords into a song, leaving the melody dissjointed.
I now find songwriting easier when I find a chord progression I like, without over complicationg it, and then huming a melody that fits nicely over the chords.
Lastly I add lyrics, I find this is the best method for myself, with maybe no more that 6 chords in total.
Listeners tend to focus on melody, and some of the best songs ever written have only 3 chords, think The Beatles, Dylan etc.
Hope this helps.
I thought just now about Steely Dan, Rikki Don't Lose That Number which is at the same time one of their more complex tunes harmonically and their biggest hit.
And The Beatles made some unusual choices.
So sometimes, you can do too much, yes, but being interesting harmonically does not through itself ruin one's chances in the melody department. Sometimes you need zero chords. Musical choices are contextual, there is no one size fits all we can say.
- KVRist
- 425 posts since 23 Aug, 2012 from Way Out West
BezO wrote:Interesting discussion. I always write harmony 1st. Melodies/notes mean little to me without chords underneath.
Really? That seems a little restrictive to me.
- KVRist
- 298 posts since 19 Jul, 2005
Probably a limitation of my skill. Writing melody over harmony is not an issue for me. Writing harmony under melody, I feel forced with the chords to get the notes/words to sound/feel as intended.Hooj wrote:BezO wrote:Interesting discussion. I always write harmony 1st. Melodies/notes mean little to me without chords underneath.
Really? That seems a little restrictive to me.
The groove baby, the groove...