The VSTi That I Would Pay $1,000 For

[Tj Shredder]

We attend a forum that essentially deals with lots of technology, most of it wasn't even heard of when I was growing up. I used to dream of getting a synth that could emulate real strings. That was my thing back in the late 70s. Of course you know how bad string machines were back then.

Now we have sample libraries that, at least to my ears, you can't tell the difference between them and the real thing. Certainly the technology is closer to realism than Vocaloid is to the human voice. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say sample libraries are a 9 and Vocaloid is a 5. So it has a long way to go.

These sample libraries seem to be "accepted" by the community at large. I am sure there is a minority who also feel that they are wrong as well. That violins should be played by real violinists. But for the most part, the technology is accepted and used. Otherwise, these companies would be in business. Agreed?

All I'm asking for is the same quality in technology for human voice synthesis but for whatever reason, this seems to be the cutoff point as far as acceptance goes. Sample libraries, yes, human vocal synthesis at the same quality, no.

I find this hypocritical. I don't see the difference between somebody who spent years learning to play the violin and somebody who spent years learning to sing.

So I'm open to somebody explaining to me the "ethical" difference.

Because I don't see it. And Hink, I'd like to know your thoughts on this too if you don't mind.

There is adifference between a sample library, mimiking an orchestra and any solo instrument. Choirs as sample library work as good as orchestras as long they don't need to talk...; - )
For the virtual solo instruments you need as many years learning to play as with the real thing...
There is also a price point for hiring an orchestra. A very good soloist is way cheaper and even affordable for poor composers...

[wagtunes]

We attend a forum that essentially deals with lots of technology, most of it wasn't even heard of when I was growing up. I used to dream of getting a synth that could emulate real strings. That was my thing back in the late 70s. Of course you know how bad string machines were back then.

Now we have sample libraries that, at least to my ears, you can't tell the difference between them and the real thing. Certainly the technology is closer to realism than Vocaloid is to the human voice. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say sample libraries are a 9 and Vocaloid is a 5. So it has a long way to go.

These sample libraries seem to be "accepted" by the community at large. I am sure there is a minority who also feel that they are wrong as well. That violins should be played by real violinists. But for the most part, the technology is accepted and used. Otherwise, these companies would be in business. Agreed?

All I'm asking for is the same quality in technology for human voice synthesis but for whatever reason, this seems to be the cutoff point as far as acceptance goes. Sample libraries, yes, human vocal synthesis at the same quality, no.

I find this hypocritical. I don't see the difference between somebody who spent years learning to play the violin and somebody who spent years learning to sing.

So I'm open to somebody explaining to me the "ethical" difference.

Because I don't see it. And Hink, I'd like to know your thoughts on this too if you don't mind.

There is adifference between a sample library, mimiking an orchestra and any solo instrument. Choirs as sample library work as good as orchestras as long they don't need to talk...; - )
For the virtual solo instruments you need as many years learning to play as with the real thing...
There is also a price point for hiring an orchestra. A very good soloist is way cheaper and even affordable for poor composers...

I've read your response several times and I'm not seeing the moral problem. You address price and skill but I'm still not seeing the difference, morally, between using a sampled violin and a piece of software that duplicates the human sung voice. To me they are the same. They are tools to get the musical idea across, whatever that idea may be, in the best quality as possible.

And while I appreciate that you can tell the difference between a real violin and a sampled instrument, I can't but CAN tell the difference between Vocaloid and a real singer. That's the difference. I want the spread between Vocaloid and the real singer to be as narrow as the spread between a sampled violin and a real violin.

I don't see the moral problem with that, even if the technology itself would be too difficult to make, too expensive or too difficult to use. I'm talking simply from a moralistic standpoint.

What problem, if any, do you have morally with such a piece of software?

[Tj Shredder]

I don't see any moral problem with what tools you or anybody uses. There is no moral problem, there is a musical one. If some one claims a given technology would put a musician out business, I'd say, it most likely was not a musician. No technology can replace a musician. Of course you can hire a instrumentalist for filling sound into a recording. That one could be replaced by technology filling sounds into a recording. As a musician you could also play everything yourself, but that is exactly the same amount of work as if a band would play all together, no actually its more work... That would even create employment...; - )

[wagtunes]

I don't see any moral problem with what tools you or anybody uses. There is no moral problem, there is a musical one. If some one claims a given technology would put a musician out business, I'd say, it most likely was not a musician. No technology can replace a musician. Of course you can hire a instrumentalist for filling sound into a recording. That one could be replaced by technology filling sounds into a recording. As a musician you could also play everything yourself, but that is exactly the same amount of work as if a band would play all together, no actually its more work... That would even create employment...; - )

Okay, so then do you have a problem with my request for the software I'm looking for if it could emulate a human singing voice as closely as say Chris Hein's solo violin emulates a real violin? Because right now, the technology isn't even close to that level and there are people who do have a problem with what I'm looking for.

[vurt]

no moral issue here, merely as you yourself say, its a long way off.
im just not sure why you don't try one of the avenues that is available to make the best of the music you have, because lets be honest, vocaloid is a bit shite for your needs.

i understand you don't like people, by and large they are arseholes, its true. but a vocalist might not be a bad idea.
if you are dead set against that though, you have your own voice, all we need is a way to mask it, would a vocoder not be preferable?

im just throwing ideas in a hat, not anti the idea, just being a little realistic.

[wagtunes]

no moral issue here, merely as you yourself say, its a long way off.
im just not sure why you don't try one of the avenues that is available to make the best of the music you have, because lets be honest, vocaloid is a bit shite for your needs.

i understand you don't like people, by and large they are arseholes, its true. but a vocalist might not be a bad idea.
if you are dead set against that though, you have your own voice, all we need is a way to mask it, would a vocoder not be preferable?

im just throwing ideas in a hat, not anti the idea, just being a little realistic.

Being realistic, calm and rational.

1. I've been singing my whole life. I've watched my voice deteriorate little by little every year for the past 10 years to the point where I can't listen to myself anymore. I can only imagine what other people feel when they hear me now.

This is a recording I made just after the turn of the century. I was still able to sing decently if not great. And certainly, if I could sing even this well now, I would. Please note, the recording itself is pretty bad. It's loud as hell because at the time I didn't know what a limiter was. I'm sure this has to be at least 6 to 8 db too loud. But the voice is "tolerable".

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... arly-years

2. As I said, I don't like working with people. In 40 years of making music I have tried. Believe me I have. It just doesn't work. And I'll take all the blame for it. Doesn't matter. Just doesn't work.

3. Even if #2 wasn't the case, I am on a fixed income with my wife retired and my business being what it is, almost non existent. I can't afford to spend money on "luxuries" like hiring singers. Not when I can get the point across with software, even if it isn't ideal. And while maybe it doesn't make any logical sense, I can't spend $10 on a singer but could spend $1,000 on software that can give me nearly the same results that I can ultimately use over and over to the point where it will someday pay for itself many times over given I have hundreds of songs that I'd like to get professionally sung.

So given all of the above, hiring a singer or singing myself simply isn't an option for me. Even with autotune and just about every effect I can think of throwing on my voice, it still sounds like crap. You can dress up a turd but it's still a turd. That's what my voice is today. A turd.

I hope I've sufficiently answered your questions. If not, I honestly don't know what else to say.

Until the software I want comes along, Vocaloid will have to do. For personal consumption, I'm okay with that even if I don't love the Vocaloid sound. I can at least tolerate it and for some genres (chiptune, J-Pop) actually like it. For others to listen to, obviously it is less than ideal as it's been said to me many times by many people that Vocaloid ruins my songs.

That is why I want the software that I want.

[vurt]

fair enough. like i said, just throwing ideas. not attacking, not against a tool and hopefully youll get your wish one day .


as for number 2, im not dissimilar. im ok with online collabs, but put me in a room together for any extended period, it never ends well
i even go so far as only texting family, never phoning.

[vurt]

and, for what its worth, i may piss about and joke around but i have absolutely no hatred for you.


i am creeped out by the puppet though

[Aloysius]

When you say $1000, are you talking about American or Australian dollars?

[wagtunes]

and, for what its worth, i may piss about and joke around but i have absolutely no hatred for you.


i am creeped out by the puppet though

Lots of people are creep'd out by the puppet.

Anyway, I'm about to start working on my next song. I haven't decided which Vocaloid I want to ruin it with yet.

[wagtunes]

When you say $1000, are you talking about American or Australian dollars?

American dollars.

[Aloysius]

Google says $1000 = 813.29 EUR. That's quite expensive but if it did exactly what you want, then it would be worth it in the long run.

[wagtunes]

Google says $1000 = 813.29 EUR. That's quite expensive but if it did exactly what you want, then it would be worth it in the long run.

I figure it this way, doing a cost analysis. Just taking the 253 Vocaloid tunes I have up on Soundcloud, if I had each one done by a real singer, even at $10 a pop (I doubt I'm getting a singer that cheap) that comes out to $2,530. And that's not counting other costs such as studio time and my time just having to deal with the recording sessions which are going to be a lot longer than the time it takes me to program Vocaloid.

So in the long run, I'm saving tons of money.

[Aloysius]

[jancivil]

All I'm asking for is the same quality in technology for human voice synthesis but for whatever reason, this seems to be the cutoff point as far as acceptance goes. Sample libraries, yes, human vocal synthesis at the same quality, no.

I find this hypocritical. I don't see the difference between somebody who spent years learning to play the violin and somebody who spent years learning to sing.

So I'm open to somebody explaining to me the "ethical" difference.

You have moved the goalposts. This is not the same premise as in the OP.

I for one have tried to go into explaining the ethical issues of the notion in the OP. This is a different matter. I endeavored to cover this difference in my words before.

However, while I do not play, eg., the saxophone, no member of the sax choir, I have WORKED WITH saxophones and deeply. So I am able to produce a convincing sax solo, which is a bit special, out of that. I have spent some time watching orchestras and working for an orchestra and the choice of that job is a no-brainer. Setting up the orchestra and schlepping its gear about in a truck. So I know from the real here as well. I think contact with people is good. It occurs to me that music comes from people much of the time. I don't hate people to the extent as you have stated.

I've upset people numerous times here insisting you need to have an instrument, one at least, under your belt before you feature yourself as ready to write. I'm consistent. My idea I think is coherent and this was not my worst writing, I think my objections were conveyed well enough to grasp.