My new Seaboard "Continuum"... :-)

[FranklyFlawless]

Did you feel the need to paint the "black" keys in? I am curious from a design perspective if tactile/visual feedback is necessary. How long were you able to play the Seaboard Block without any visual indicators for pitch?

[ThomasHelzle]

Well it depends on what you want to do I think.

I personally can enjoy playing without any indicators, since I'm not too married to "correct" scales or notes and often find the colours in chromatic playing quite interesting. I left the indicators off for several months initially.
My hearing also is relatively good, so I can find the "right" places quick enough for my needs.

But if you play with others and are more reliant on playing in key, some kind of markers help.
Doesn't need to be black keys of course, one could just as well do dots like on the guitar or fretless bass...

I'm sure there are people who master something like the Haaken Continuum to a point like Cello players master their instrument, so they can basically hit the note blindly, but I am not gifted with that kind of manual precision and don't plan to spend ages practicing - I use it rather casually.

Tactile feedback would be interesting to do well, AFAIK the new seaboards have it more like a typing keyboard with their little markers on F and J, but honestly, on the goo waves, I don't really see why I would need more markers...

But that again is down to the individual. I have zero interest playing something like a Piano on the seaboard or drums. It's strength - for me - is sounds with long decay that lend themselves to being bent over time. Slow sounds and their manipulation is where it's at for me. And in that realm, precision of initial intonation isn't that important for me, sliding into it is actually the most interesting part.

I think it would be very interesting to offer several individual covers for such instruments.
From flat with no markings at all to tiny tactile dots to visual markings - and there are people who actually like the goo waves, so there is a place for that too it seems, although I found them to be more in the way than helpful.

It's interesting: When MPE started to emerge (which coincided with my time at Bitwig), I would have expected to see way more instruments to show up over time and way more approaches to how they are laid out. But it seems it's too niche to really make a larger impact, and Linnstrument and Seaboard are "good enough" for most people, even if I personally think there is a lot more that could be done in the realm.
On the fringes you have super experimental things like the Soma Labs offerings and other small companies, but that appeals only to a handful of people.
Or you have those rather crappy built things like those guitar inspired controllers that just don't really cut it quality wise.

I think the Osmose is the closest to what I initially expected more off: Courageous re-interpretations of existing playing surfaces that are well made (the Osmose is fantastic in build and design) and well thought out and opens up a VERY old structure with new possibilities.
And it really is a new instrument with the Eagan Matrix built in, not just a controller.
And it's super intuitive right away...

Other "new" things like the Erae Touch are - for me - totally uninspired, since they just take a flatly laid out pressure sensor as it is and arrange everything around that. And IMO those we have several of already and they do not consider the human being first, but the human being has to conform to the sensor.
It's like finger drumming - grid controllers are definitely not what our evolution contained much off, otherwise we probably would have our fingers in a grid, 16 on each side...

Anyway, let me take those photos today...

Cheers,

Tom

[FranklyFlawless]

Well it depends on what you want to do I think.

I personally can enjoy playing without any indicators, since I'm not too married to "correct" scales or notes and often find the colours in chromatic playing quite interesting. I left the indicators off for several months initially.
My hearing also is relatively good, so I can find the "right" places quick enough for my needs.

But if you play with others and are more reliant on playing in key, some kind of markers help.
Doesn't need to be black keys of course, one could just as well do dots like on the guitar or fretless bass...

I'm sure there are people who master something like the Haaken Continuum to a point like Cello players master their instrument, so they can basically hit the note blindly, but I am not gifted with that kind of manual precision and don't plan to spend ages practicing - I use it rather casually.

This is good information, thank you for providing your perspective. I would need to do both eventually, so mastering would be the way to go for me, although I can see myself using visual indicators temporarily as an intermediary step towards that.

I think it would be very interesting to offer several individual covers for such instruments.
From flat with no markings at all to tiny tactile dots to visual markings - and there are people who actually like the goo waves, so there is a place for that too it seems, although I found them to be more in the way than helpful.

Unfortunately indivdual covers with tactile indicators are not simple, at least from a silicone standpoint. As an example, over at the Roger Linn Design board, there is a popular thread for a DIY Speedbumpy Surface, with a matching YouTube video. The problem is that it does not have a non-stick coating, so for it to have a quality one requires a clean room and silicone molds. The molds themselves are very expensive, and there are two LinnStrument models. The total for both molds and a production run of 180-240 playing surfaces for both models is estimated to be in the $15,000 USD range, so it will either need to be out of pocket, or crowdfunded.

In contrast, our needs are simpler and cheaper. Flat, featureless, smooth/slippery, and when necessary, visual indicators. I can turn the LinnStrument's lights on or off depending on the material's opacity, and you can easily swap overlays on the Seaboard Block, since you added an outer top frame, although I have yet to see it in a photo. I am still experimenting with various materials myself along with support from Roger Linn.

It's interesting: When MPE started to emerge (which coincided with my time at Bitwig), I would have expected to see way more instruments to show up over time and way more approaches to how they are laid out. But it seems it's too niche to really make a larger impact, and Linnstrument and Seaboard are "good enough" for most people, even if I personally think there is a lot more that could be done in the realm.
On the fringes you have super experimental things like the Soma Labs offerings and other small companies, but that appeals only to a handful of people.
Or you have those rather crappy built things like those guitar inspired controllers that just don't really cut it quality wise.

Probably the biggest challenge is that people just want to use the same interfaces as their current ones so that they do not have to spend time learning a different one. It is difficult to sell and market products that throws all of that practice and training out the window.

I maintain a comprehensive list of MPE hardware controllers, so if you know anything that is missing from it, please let me know. I have not had time to prioritize adding products from SOMA Laboratory, but I know that the TERRA will be in the next update.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, if you need "industry quality"/perfection, prices go up a lot.

I personally can enjoy that, but can just as much enjoy something improvised.
In my commercial work I deal with perfection enough to also see, that sometimes an individual solution with "flaws" has it's own charm and value, like knowing that I recycled that old netbook-bag for the playing surface is it's own perfection, and that it has a bit of an indent where something was lying on it for years in my stuff-cabinet is part of it's history...

I never liked the hard surface of the Linnstrument (I tried one of the very early ones for a while, borrowed from Bitwig) but Roger explained that sensitivity goes down with smoother materials...

That is probably why the Haaken is still the gold standard in sensitivity, they have that down but use a different sensor.

And for what I want to do with it, that neoprene material I used is just about perfect.

And yeah, I totally agree with what you say about people wanting to keep their playing experience with new controllers, and the Osmose does that perfectly for keyboard players IMO - the side wiggle just works and the pressure is also very intuitive, so you can gradually improve your playing instead of starting from scratch.

But what I haven't seen yet is something so compelling and amazing that people just want to use it, even if they have to learn something new. The Osmose IMO is the closest to delivering a full experience in that direction, although it isn't a new paradigm. But they had the courage to not just do another XYZ control surface - which IMO defeats the human experience up to a point and is very technical and non-tactile, real instruments have a way more alive dimensionality and feel, a string does vibrate, when you bend it it gives you feedback about it's tension, underneath there is wood, frets, resonance...
While most controllers that exist feel like crap to my fingers and do not use effectively what human senses can do.
(Again, the Osmose is amazing in that even the plastic keys feel fantastic).

For me, it's not about "doing MPE" but about creating sensitive instruments, no matter how many axi they have or how they do it. And while I can't scientifically prove it, the higher temporal and value resolution of the Osmose/Eagan Matrix does something to the playing that makes it feel way more immediate and alive than the "good enough" Midi 1.0 and MPE stuff I tried.

So yeah, I hope to see much more and much better things in the future!

That is actually one of the sad things about Roli: In their overfinanced antics, they burned a ton of capital for crap and occupied too big a space for other, more innovative products to have a chance. They also threw so much money at advertising that MPE didn't grow up naturally but was pushed in the world with too much force and this specific product just isn't as good as that.
And since they are/were also very bad at software development and support etc. they gave the whole thing a bad taste. Their bankruptcy and return with that toy keyboard and silly ideas about it didn't help the realm either.
So they burned a lot of ground and salted it for good.

Another point why Expresivee and Osmose make me happy: They did it right and even with the wind blowing into their face brutally and a delay of 3 years, they have a solid offering that should hopefully make them enough money to continue to innovate beautifully and competently.

Pictures incoming - still working on them...

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

So images:

Seaboard_Continuum_Top.jpg

Seaboard_Continuum_Front.jpg

Seaboard_Continuum_Side.jpg

Seaboard_Frame_Top.jpg

Seaboard_Frame_Bottom.jpg

Seaboard_Frame_Close.jpg

Seaboard_Frame_Foot_Underside.jpg

The Seaboard Block is lying in a kind of cradle with the corners raised to hold it and the areas in between lowered to keep access to the cable and to the power button unencumbered - I also prefer curved lines over straight ones...

The cradle is basically pretty much raw with only minimal sanding and cleaning, mostly because you either keep it mostly as is and get the shiny surface of the raw material (Black Shiny PLA in this case - or was it PETG? Can't remember ) or you do a massive amount of work to try to get the print lines out and in reality you hardly see it - photos always emphasize the lines etc.

I'm only a part-time-perfectionist thankfully

If I press it in it holds perfectly together for normal use so I didn't have to glue or otherwise fasten it - and pressure comes from above anyway.

You can see that the rubber feet are pretty fat - that is mostly since this is the compound-rubber you put under washing machines, 1 cm thick and I didn't want to make the holes in which they sit too deep, so that the material doesn't get too thin on the sides. The next version I would make them at least a bit deeper so the rubber is less prominent, but somehow I like the big feet...

In the images they look off, since the spiral bound notepad I put it on is hanging down on the sides, but on a table it is perfectly flat and like I wrote before, that rubber stuff is fantastic in keeping it rock solid in place, even when sliding with your fingers on the surface while playing, something that NEVER worked before with the original design.
This is both the better rubber as well as the four small feet instead of one large area, so the pressure is more focused (and, since the bottom was not flat originally, it was even worse).

The upper thin frame I finally decided to attach with four drops of superglue in the corners, since it is so fragile, you can't really do any mechanical connection and this way it works just fine for my usage.

On the underside you can still see the raster from the supports I needed to print, since you can't print in thin air. It would be a pain to sand off and you can't see it anyway - for a commercial product you of course would do this differently...

So yeah, my first Seaboard "Continuum" prototype in all it's proto-glory

For me it's perfect and a hundred times more fun than the original to play and use.
The design could easily be adapted to two seaboard blocks, where the frame would also hold them securely together. I'd probably go for 6 feet then or one central foot underneath to keep it from hanging through.

With a seaboard rise, it would probably need a different design altogether.
I never had one so can't say if it's any better in usage than the block.

I'd love to have two blocks but I don't use it often enough to invest the money...

Cheers,

Tom

[FranklyFlawless]

I never liked the hard surface of the Linnstrument (I tried one of the very early ones for a while, borrowed from Bitwig) but Roger explained that sensitivity goes down with smoother materials...

That is probably why the Haaken is still the gold standard in sensitivity, they have that down but use a different sensor.

And for what I want to do with it, that neoprene material I used is just about perfect.

Both use different sensor technology and scan rates due to the amount of notes on each of their surfaces. You can adjust the sensor's prescale value on the LinnStrument to increase or decrease the raw sensitivity for velocity and pressure.

From my understanding and based on Roger's explanations, thicker materials are less sensitive because they spread the force across a greater surface. That is the reason why I want to experiment with thin plastic films and fabrics first, while leaving the thick neoprene/polyester last.

But what I haven't seen yet is something so compelling and amazing that people just want to use it, even if they have to learn something new. The Osmose IMO is the closest to delivering a full experience in that direction, although it isn't a new paradigm. But they had the courage to not just do another XYZ control surface - which IMO defeats the human experience up to a point and is very technical and non-tactile, real instruments have a way more alive dimensionality and feel, a string does vibrate, when you bend it it gives you feedback about it's tension, underneath there is wood, frets, resonance...
While most controllers that exist feel like crap to my fingers and do not use effectively what human senses can do.
(Again, the Osmose is amazing in that even the plastic keys feel fantastic).

Products need to be accessible in the first place for people to try them out. Unfortunately for most people, that happens inside music retailers that are reluctant to take risks with experimental products, and not at trade shows like NAMM.

Some issues I keep thinking about are the lack of integrated batteries and speakers. It is difficult to demonstrate an MPE controller to someone else if separate components are required to produce sound. For most of them, there is no embedded synthesizer either.

That is actually one of the sad things about Roli: In their overfinanced antics, they burned a ton of capital for crap and occupied too big a space for other, more innovative products to have a chance. They also threw so much money at advertising that MPE didn't grow up naturally but was pushed in the world with too much force and the product just isn't as good as that.
And since they are/were also very bad at software development and support etc. they gave the whole thing a bad taste. Their bankruptcy and return with that toy keyboard and silly ideas about it didn't help the realm either.
So they burned a lot of ground and salted it for good.

In the end though, MPE became standardized in the MIDI specification thanks to them and a handful of others. Now there are tons of MPE products for consumers to use, and many more to come. There is more demand for MPE in software than hardware, but nonetheless is a good sign of growth for the field.

[FranklyFlawless]

Those are some nice photos. I notice that the "black keys" are halfway instead of full strips like the Continuum, so it strikes a balance for visual indicators. It also looks like the large bump from the original photos is now more tamed in the new ones. Overall your DIY Seaboard Block modifications looks sleek.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, I initially only wanted to do a kind of guitar dots for the keys, but somehow this version feels very natural, since it reminds of real keyboards and is enough to give one a sense of space for the fingers.

And yes, that compressed area has expanded back a bit, but there are still some of the bumps left - like I said, I somehow like that

Yeah, for a very first design test I'm very happy and especially that it works so well. I basically went in not knowing if it was possible at all to get it working after ripping off the goo, but I didn't have any issues since I put it together this way.

I can highly recommend taking those things apart to everyone who is less than happy with the goo waves.
It is very simple inside and pretty sturdy, one could probably find a replacement battery too (although I never use it on battery or via bluetooth).

Cheers - and in case you do something interesting, I'd be happy if you link me to it!

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

Oh, and BTW, our latest prototype is a cello made from a thick bamboo stick...

[FranklyFlawless]

Cheers - and in case you do something interesting, I'd be happy if you link me to it!

I am getting a bamboo fabric sample from Contrado, various plastic films from McMaster and various silicone playing surfaces from Roger, all of which will arrive next week. Currently the idea is to use a silicone playing surface with the entire grid section removed, and under that is the flat, thin, slippery material. A more expensive process would be to remove the silicone playing surface and create a new top panel for the LinnStrument to maintain the same dimensions, but I have not had much success getting CAD design services from other companies. As mentioned earlier, the most expensive option is paying for a silicone mold or two, but I think I will be able to avoid doing that with all of the resources I currently have.

Once everything has been tested and a successful solution has been found, I will make a thread in the Roger Linn Design board, otherwise I will have to order neoprene/polyester from Contrado and hope that can replace the silicone playing surface. Odds are that if you found success with your neoprene surface, I will too.

[ThomasHelzle]

Interesting!

Would also be interesting if you can't find a simpler method for tactile feedback.
Like I saw very interesting silicon materials on rolls sold by the meter here in Berlin and I wonder if one could do something with a cutting plotter or laser (would probably stink like hell ) instead of the whole moulding bother.

Or like: use a pre-made silicone sheet material and just punch holes for tactile feedback, or put slightly thicker "plugs" in those holes or metal pieces with a slight rounding on top... just brainstorming here...
That would also allow to use custom colours or materials instead of having to do everything in one expensive manufacturing step.
And you could do manual prototypes first instead of relying too much on external resources.

3D-Printing could also be interesting. There are TPUs and other materials of varying softness and - at least with PLA and PETG - I was able to get very smooth surfaces with some tuning out of my Printers. Can only print up to 35x35x40cm though with my Creality Ender 5 Plus.

I bought my two printers for prototyping these designs: https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/the-guar ... ney/154148 and it's been a real blessing for testing out ideas ever since.
The figures are now in production with injection moulding - and those moulds are seriously expensive...

I don't have a Linnstrument, otherwise I could maybe join forces with you - I do 3D for 30 years now...
What kind of CAD services do you need?

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

As for neoprene on the Linnstrument: I don't know what kind of sensor they use. If it's more or less the same as on the Seaboard, it should work probably. You may lose some directness of attack maybe.

And since it's a different layout and optimised for the rather hard surface material, you may need to do your own adjustments in the firmware. It may be that you get more signal noise on the surrounding pads with softer/thicker materials.
Especially the Y axis is done differently, on the Seaboard it spreads over all the height of the surface while on the Linnstrument it is limited to each individual pad, so needs way more precision in that direction.

Well, good luck!

Cheers,

Tom

[FranklyFlawless]

Would also be interesting if you can't find a simpler method for tactile feedback.
Like I saw very interesting silicon materials on rolls sold by the meter here in Berlin and I wonder if one could do something with a cutting plotter or laser (would probably stink like hell ) instead of the whole moulding bother.

Or like: use a pre-made silicone sheet material and just punch holes for tactile feedback, or put slightly thicker "plugs" in those holes or metal pieces with a slight rounding on top... just brainstorming here...
That would also allow to use custom colours or materials instead of having to do everything in one expensive manufacturing step.
And you could do manual prototypes first instead of relying too much on external resources.

I do not want tactile feedback. A lot of the reason why I am doing this DIY project is that the grid and Braille-regulation dots on the playing surface disrupt my performance. The grid makes it harder for me to slide multiple fingers, especially diagonally because of the intersections, and the Braille-regulation dots no longer have meaning because I use the tritone layout, not the string 4ths layout like most LinnStrumentalists.

The issue is the non-stick polyurethane coating. It is easy to cure a DIY silicone playing surface, as that has been already done on the Roger Linn Design board, and add whatever preferred tactile feedback. It is not easy to make it have less friction for sliding performances. Most controllers can get away with it because they use grids, or their playing surfaces are too small.

Other LinnStrumentalists take great interest in tactile feedback, but I am more interested in relying on auditory feedback. All I need is to hear the sound being produced in relation to my touch, and nothing more.

3D-Printing could also be interesting. There are TPUs and other materials of varying softness and - at least with PLA and PETG - I was able to get very smooth surfaces with some tuning out of my Printers. Can only print up to 35x35x40cm though with my Creality Ender 5 Plus.

I bought my two printers for prototyping these designs: https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/the-guar ... ney/154148 and it's been a real blessing for testing out ideas ever since.
The figures are now in production with injection moulding - and those moulds are seriously expensive...

I don't have a Linnstrument, otherwise I could maybe join forces with you - I do 3D for 30 years now...
What kind of CAD services do you need?

It is clear that your work is of sublime quality, but unfortunately the LinnStrument's silicone surface is 56.9 cm by 18.4 cm, which is too large for your printer.

Roger Linn provided STEP files of the silicone playing sheets. He also provided me a PDF file of the steel top panel. Basically, I need the 200-note playing area removed, and the 8-note column on the left removed as well. That column also has indents around it that need to be filled to be flush with the rest of the surface. After that, the top panel needs to be attached and combined with it into one piece. So for a combined bird's eye view, there should be 1 massive 476mm x 153mm hole in the center, 8 13mm x 8mm holes for the column on the left, and 16 3.5mm screw holes for M3 countersunk screws. The bottom view is the same except that there are also multiple partial holes for the electronic components and solder.

The challenge is that the material needs to be rigid to apply enough pressure to the touch sensors at the very top and bottom of the LinnStrument, otherwise most of the columns will not function. That means wood is not an option. The only material I have considered is the same as the current one, which is 16 gauge steel with a black powder coating, so that will need to be custom fabricated and finished. Maybe you have alternative material suggestions for rigidity?

As for neoprene on the Linnstrument: I don't know what kind of sensor they use. If it's more or less the same as on the Seaboard, it should work probably. You may lose some directness of attack maybe.

And since it's a different layout and optimised for the rather hard surface material, you may need to do your own adjustments in the firmware. It may be that you get more signal noise on the surrounding pads with softer/thicker materials.
Especially the Y axis is done differently, on the Seaboard it spreads over all the height of the surface while on the Linnstrument it is limited to each individual pad, so needs way more precision in that direction.

It uses force sensing resistors from Tangio Printed Electronics. Here is a YouTube video about it, and here is their product line. I do not know which one is used exactly, but I can ask Roger Linn after I deal with this hardware project first. I plan on replacing the current sensor with a different one that enables inter-row straddles, and Roger has offered to provide support for that project as well, but I know it is ambitious and will take time to refine. That will come directly after this surface replacement.

I will deal with the firmware later. Hardware comes first, as I stand to gain far more from modifying it. I am fortunate enough to have both as options compared to most other consumer products.

[ThomasHelzle]

Ah, from your comments I thought you were after the tactile feedback first and foremost. Okay, a flat surface should be much easier.

And yeah, my printer would be too small, but if you don't want any "disturbances" on the surface, what I suggested it for is irrelevant anyway

There are many online services to laser or CNC such metal panels as you describe (if I understand you correctly - without images it's always hard to visualise), usually - if you only need cuts and holes and no bending etc. - it's not too expensive and a 2D PDF will suffice for the vendor.

Well, good luck then!

Cheers,

Tom

[FranklyFlawless]

After multiple experimentations, I have finally completed my LinnStrument Darker Mod. In the end, the bamboo fabric came out on top, but a close candidate was neoprene with a polyester front. Unfortunately there were quality issues with the neoprene sample I received from Contrado. The polyester front was abrasive, and the friction generated some heat, so it was suboptimal. The various plastics from McMaster had major issues scaling with higher pressure, becoming very grippy like rubber, but can still be usable with a very high Touch Sensor Prescale value, and a very light touch.

After many lengthy discussions with Roger over email for the past few months, I decided to postpone the custom metal fabrication and sensor replacement for now because this project is already too time-consuming and that I do not urgently need them. It is also why I am postponing firmware modifications until I can personally fund an Arduino software developer to write code based on my vision of the LinnStrument. My highest musical priority is developing my proficiency to match my piano/keyboard skills, but translated onto the LinnStrument.