can transposing any key to any key always be considered correct?
if you are patient and listen just a little carefully- it always seems to work musically to me
my use case is transposing C or D flat on guitar to whatever by listening in semitone steps,
I always seem to be able to find that I can tune to the key
Is it theoretically ok to do so? I know to whatever sounds good to you
-was wondering
if this is so- no key really sounds intrinsically different to another?
is transposing ever incorrect?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5168 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
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- KVRian
- 607 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA
I think the answer depends on your level of expertise (not that I pretend to be an expert!)
If you are a beginner, then yes, any key is fine.
If you dive down into the weeds a bit more then
* Only if you are using an equal temperament; just intonation, Pythagorean temperament, etc. will fail horribly when transposed
* Only if you don't have perfect pitch. Then anything other than the original key will sound different. Heck, even shifting things up a 1/4 semitone in otherwise the same key will drive them nuts. We have one of them in my band (not me!)
* Depends on your fellow musicians. As a keyboardist, if I take a "Hotel California" down from D to Db, the lead guitarist will not be able to follow, but he'd have no trouble if I took it down to C. Similarly, the guy we bring in on trumpet, although incredibly talented, won't be happy taking a Bb piece up to B. Our drummer, though, is always fine in the key of drum.
You hear some threads about "Dm is the saddest key" and stuff like that. Maybe for some? I don't want to pretend I know what everyone feels when they hear music, but no one I've ever worked with feels that way personally.
If you are a beginner, then yes, any key is fine.
If you dive down into the weeds a bit more then
* Only if you are using an equal temperament; just intonation, Pythagorean temperament, etc. will fail horribly when transposed
* Only if you don't have perfect pitch. Then anything other than the original key will sound different. Heck, even shifting things up a 1/4 semitone in otherwise the same key will drive them nuts. We have one of them in my band (not me!)
* Depends on your fellow musicians. As a keyboardist, if I take a "Hotel California" down from D to Db, the lead guitarist will not be able to follow, but he'd have no trouble if I took it down to C. Similarly, the guy we bring in on trumpet, although incredibly talented, won't be happy taking a Bb piece up to B. Our drummer, though, is always fine in the key of drum.
You hear some threads about "Dm is the saddest key" and stuff like that. Maybe for some? I don't want to pretend I know what everyone feels when they hear music, but no one I've ever worked with feels that way personally.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5168 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
hey thanks!
I'll stick to being an amateur with an amazing pitch bending instrument(digital guitar)
-then as a beginner I am qualified to bend to any key
I have thought about using a different interval a little, and the one that interests me most is dividing an octave by 24 instead of 12
I think that a quarter of a semi-tone would certainly sound like a bent pitch to me,
but I can happily listen to most accidental music- my singing voice tells me that I don't really carry much of a true pitch in a pitch-perfect sense
Interesting use-case that your team have different circumstances in transposing
Cheers Analog, hope to see u around
I'll stick to being an amateur with an amazing pitch bending instrument(digital guitar)
-then as a beginner I am qualified to bend to any key
I have thought about using a different interval a little, and the one that interests me most is dividing an octave by 24 instead of 12
I think that a quarter of a semi-tone would certainly sound like a bent pitch to me,
but I can happily listen to most accidental music- my singing voice tells me that I don't really carry much of a true pitch in a pitch-perfect sense
Interesting use-case that your team have different circumstances in transposing
Cheers Analog, hope to see u around
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Transposing to a key when there are instruments which are built on a fundamental, eg., Bb tenor sax, that is problematic for the sax can be considered 'incorrect' in a way. But then, Giant Steps begins with its center as B. People said things like 'that's a hillbilly key' at the time. There are things which get to be unplayable, however.
I use different keys because the ramifications of keys are different in usage. A change of key works as it works, additionally. I don't have a bulletproof argument for it on physics. One might say that it's all the same on a piano, because equal temperament, but in fact that isn't quite true of the piano, as any real piano uses stretch tuning (and is an art more than a simple set of facts).
If you transpose something on guitar that was in open tuning or the first positions and use a lot of open strings it can very much change how it works for someone. Using a capo preserves some of it, but let's say your open position chords are pushed up past a certain amount, it sounds different (and the guitar with enough idiosyncrasies for there to be physical reasons).
I use different keys because the ramifications of keys are different in usage. A change of key works as it works, additionally. I don't have a bulletproof argument for it on physics. One might say that it's all the same on a piano, because equal temperament, but in fact that isn't quite true of the piano, as any real piano uses stretch tuning (and is an art more than a simple set of facts).
If you transpose something on guitar that was in open tuning or the first positions and use a lot of open strings it can very much change how it works for someone. Using a capo preserves some of it, but let's say your open position chords are pushed up past a certain amount, it sounds different (and the guitar with enough idiosyncrasies for there to be physical reasons).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5168 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
of course - one of the functions of keys is changing keys in one piece,
when u said that I see
Also learnt that open tunings are a common triad and that they barr (bar?) well
Stretch tuning was also new on me,
but I see inharmonic vibration may have to be ameliorated, although I didn't know it was convention
I am aware that tuning due to guitar fretwork is some cents out, and am aware of one inharmonic flaw on the lower fretboard 2nd and 3rd highest strings D that actually is very nice and those 2 notes always seem to sound a little different
My pieces in different tunings don't play differently as I digitally repitch
I didn't think of the root as the centre, but the lowest
that's real nice that this transposing technique is largely acceptable!
-and thanks for the new information 8D
when u said that I see
Also learnt that open tunings are a common triad and that they barr (bar?) well
Stretch tuning was also new on me,
but I see inharmonic vibration may have to be ameliorated, although I didn't know it was convention
I am aware that tuning due to guitar fretwork is some cents out, and am aware of one inharmonic flaw on the lower fretboard 2nd and 3rd highest strings D that actually is very nice and those 2 notes always seem to sound a little different
My pieces in different tunings don't play differently as I digitally repitch
I didn't think of the root as the centre, but the lowest
that's real nice that this transposing technique is largely acceptable!
-and thanks for the new information 8D
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
a whole lot of things would appear differently to the guitarist in very different positions and concepts of the position (owing to the idiom), so a different key could be an avenue to a different concept of a tune. OTOH: Straight transposition of the same thing exactly, when the sound is half of it open strings ringing, will feel different to people sensitive to music.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5168 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
the problem with causing different positions in different keys in different shapes and places,
is that with digital, with midi guitar in standard tuning, it's so lethally simple to pitch shift that every key can occur in exactly the same way as far as my ear can tell me it's at least sort of the right key. I directly pitch shift standard tuning and the key shifts and plays in the same locations,shapes,positions. It's actually a little not inventive and my knowledge of nice chords is not really progressing. What midi guitar does as far as now 16 years of it now is still vastly entertaining though because of the endless millions of sounds. Techniques like infinite sustain and perfect midi pitch quantisation are damn freakish and pleasing. I'm just getting my playing together playing jam tracks and mainly Portishead that I can contribute to the things in entirely free-form and spontaneous thing that I do now. It took me very long to play coherently with other musicians but my 7 in 12 consonance is useful to my state of entertainment now. Some jazz twiddly bits are not well formed, but the odd little quirky bit is not entirely consonant is enhancement, some sort of wrong hammer don't seem too wrong. De-tuning and buying different strings is not something I want to do now yet. Sometimes I play normal electric, I have two, and am still drawn to real-time pitch shifters. My theory is so crude, like u saw u taught me 4 things. In a good place musically I am, but it's hard as ever to actually compose, just jamming, nothing recorded at the end.
-so that's my dissertation on my playing where things have changed recently where doing the dance called improvisation is possible
is that with digital, with midi guitar in standard tuning, it's so lethally simple to pitch shift that every key can occur in exactly the same way as far as my ear can tell me it's at least sort of the right key. I directly pitch shift standard tuning and the key shifts and plays in the same locations,shapes,positions. It's actually a little not inventive and my knowledge of nice chords is not really progressing. What midi guitar does as far as now 16 years of it now is still vastly entertaining though because of the endless millions of sounds. Techniques like infinite sustain and perfect midi pitch quantisation are damn freakish and pleasing. I'm just getting my playing together playing jam tracks and mainly Portishead that I can contribute to the things in entirely free-form and spontaneous thing that I do now. It took me very long to play coherently with other musicians but my 7 in 12 consonance is useful to my state of entertainment now. Some jazz twiddly bits are not well formed, but the odd little quirky bit is not entirely consonant is enhancement, some sort of wrong hammer don't seem too wrong. De-tuning and buying different strings is not something I want to do now yet. Sometimes I play normal electric, I have two, and am still drawn to real-time pitch shifters. My theory is so crude, like u saw u taught me 4 things. In a good place musically I am, but it's hard as ever to actually compose, just jamming, nothing recorded at the end.
-so that's my dissertation on my playing where things have changed recently where doing the dance called improvisation is possible
