Newbie struggling to configure Kontakt instrument with Linnstrument expression

[HarryLeBlanc]

Hi everyone, I'm a newbie at the linnstrument, and mpe more generally. My linnstrument works great with surge xt and vital, but I'm trying to configure a Kontakt instrument (specifically the Evolution Rock Standard guitar sampled instrument, within Studio One 6, on Windows 11).
My first hurdle: The Linnstrument's z axis (pressure/aftertouch) doesn't seem to be recognized by the instrument as either "mono aftertouch" or "poly aftertouch" in Evolution. What is the Midi cc controller # that is the Linnstrument's default z axis signal? While I'm at it, what are they for x and y as well? The software supports adding custom controllers by cc number, but I can't find this info in the linnstrument manual.
The next hurdle: how to configure the software so that the x axis (left-right waggle, sliding across keys left or right) is received as pitch bend? Is this the same (in terms of midi messages) as the pitch bend wheel?
Thanks for all your patience with my ignorance. I'm trying to get up to speed. I'm excited about my Linnstrument, but also a bit overwhelmed right now.

[Tj Shredder]

In Kontakt you need to load several instances for multiple Midi channels. How pitch bend is interpreted depends on the sound pack you want to load. Mostly its set to 2, but MPE wants 48 as standard. The Linnstrument sends Channel pressure as default for the Z-axis (That is not a cc). You need to adjust a lot to make it work.
Its not independent of the DAW as well. Which DAW do you use?

[drake-n]

Not the OP, but I actually struggle with this as well.

I use Bitwig and couldn't get Orange Tree Samples (any of the ones I tried) to work and sound correctly when playing on Linnstrument. Has anyone made any tutorials on setting these up?

[HarryLeBlanc]

I understand I need to make multiples of the instrument to get polyphony, but first I'd like to get one voice to properly pitch bend, respond to pressure with volume and respond to tone with y axis slide.
"Channel pressure" isn't one of the options I can find in the instrument, and the linnstrument's behavior seems to indicate that it's different from both mono aftertouch and poly aftertouch.
Also, what kind of midi message is being passed by the x and y dimensions?

[HarryLeBlanc]

Here's what I found in a website discussing General MIDI 2:
"It supports a number of controller messages: bank select (coarse) (controller number 0, counting from 0), bank select (fine) (32), portamento time (5), channel volume (coarse) (7, also in GM1), pan (coarse) (10, also in GM1), expression (coarse) (11, also in GM1), hold 1 (damper or sustain) (64, also in GM1), portamento on/off (65), sostenuto on/off (66), soft pedal on/off (67), sound controller 2 (default is filter resonance / timbre / harmonic intensity) (71), sound controller 3 (release time) (72), sound controller 4 (attack time) (73), sound controller 5 (brightness) (74), sound controller 6 (decay time) (75), sound controller 7 (vibrato rate) (76), sound controller 8 (vibrato depth) (77), sound controller 9 (vibrato delay) (78), effect 1 depth (reverb send level) (91), and effect 3 depth (chorus send level) (93).
It supports the following registered parameter numbers: pitch bend range (value of 0 for the 0x64 and 0x65 controllers; also in GM1); fine tuning (value of 1; also in GM1); coarse tuning (value of 2; also in GM1), and modulation / vibrato depth range (value 5) and responds to the data entry controllers (controller values 6 and 38) for setting these registered parameter numbers (as in GM1)."
Which of these paramaters correspond to the X, y and z dimensions on the Linnstrument?
Thanks!

[Fannon]

Hello Harry,

have you had a look at this? https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support ... hat-is-mpe ?

In default MPE mode, the LinnStrument assignes X to Pitch bend (which is not a midi CC), Y to CC74 and Z to channel pressure (which alsi isn't a MIDI CC).

Since some VSTs like Kontakt are not really MPE capable, you need to learn how to adjust the LinnStrument that you can still play them. That doesn't mean you cannot play expressively (what you need depends on the instrument anyway).

So for example, with Kontakt you could set your LinnStrument to be in MPE mode but only use a few channels (say 5). Then create 5 instances of your Kontakt instrument, assinging them to listen to the specific Channels (say 2-6). Now you have independend pitch bend and potentially also the other MPE expressions if your Kontakt instrument allows you to map it in a meaningful way.

Only problem is, now your "shared" expressions like Mod-Wheel do not arrive. Depending on your DAW, you might find a way to address this (I've created helpers for Bitwig and Reaper to fix that) - but you can also configure your LinnStrument to send those messages to all channels. But if I did this, the LinnStrument started becoming laggy with too many channels. So reducing the MPE channels and your VST / Kontakt instrument instances is important to keep the overhead to a minimum.

[HarryLeBlanc]

Thanks, this is super useful. So, x is pitch bend, y is CC74, and Z is channel pressure (aka aftertouch -- is that poly aftertouch, or mono aftertouch?).
The linked article is also helpful. I'm a little further up the learning curve, and this will help me when talking to the patch developer about what I need to configure the instrument to respond to.
I'll keep you posted about my progress.

[FranklyFlawless]

Thanks, this is super useful. So, x is pitch bend, y is CC74, and Z is channel pressure (aka aftertouch -- is that poly aftertouch, or mono aftertouch?).
The linked article is also helpful. I'm a little further up the learning curve, and this will help me when talking to the patch developer about what I need to configure the instrument to respond to.
I'll keep you posted about my progress.

Channel Aftertouch. Poly Aftertouch is not used for MPE. From the Support page:

3) CHAN PRES (Channel Pressure)
Send pressure data using Channel Pressure messages, also called Channel Aftertouch. Channel Pressure is the standard MIDI message for sending MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) Z-axis (pressure) data.

[HarryLeBlanc]

So, is channel aftertouch the same thing as mono aftertouch?

[BobDog]

Yes, when you see those terms on the internet they are mostly interchangeable.

When you read about mono and poly aftertouch it is usually about the technology in the keybed of a keyboard.

So with mono aftertouch there is a single sensor running over all the keys in a keyboard, this is reading the maximum pressure of any key, so if you are pressing down on C2 and C3 they both act on this sensor.

With poly aftertouch each key has a sensor, so if you are pressing down on C3 and C3 they both can send the pressure value.

Both of these are sent over a single midi channel using different messages, Channel Pressure is a value for all played notes on that channel. Polyphonic pressure is multiple values, one for every individual played note on that channel.

But with MPE channel aftertouch is also polyphonic because you are using multiple channels and each channel has its own channel aftertouch.

[HarryLeBlanc]

Has anyone gotten Kontakt working with a linnstrument? When I run Kontakt (6 or 7) standalone, even though the linnstrument shows up in the midi setup page, the software does not play notes when I play the linnstrument. In my DAW (Studio One 6), kontakt treats the linnstrument like a vanilla midi controller, *until* I click "enable mpe" -- and then not only does the linnstrument effectively die (press notes, no sound), but so does my midi keyboard (Komplete Kontrol). Disable mpe, both controllers evince notes from kontakt.
Needless to say, this is unsatisfactory. Has anyone gotten Kontakt playable with a linnstrument?

[HarryLeBlanc]

Ditto with Komplete Kontrol. Shows up in midi preferences as enabled, but (in standalone mode), no notes when I play.

[Fannon]

But with MPE channel aftertouch is also polyphonic because you are using multiple channels and each channel has its own channel aftertouch.

That's the most important part of the answer, I think. With MPE you effectively have poly-aftertouch. I think LinnStrument prefers to call it "Pressure" and it also behaves a bit differently than Aftertouch with a Keyboard. There you can only have aftertouch, after you pushed the key through a certain point - with the LinnStrument you get velocity and pressure very independently. Which imho is much better - but you might design the patches a bit differently.

[FranklyFlawless]

Here is what the LinnStrument Support page has to say about Kontakt:

Kontakt does not have an MPE mode but it is fairly simple to configure for MPE use. Simply load Kontakt then load, for example, 4 instances of the same sample group into it. Each instance will automatically be assigned to a separate MIDI channel, or you can change each instance to the channel you want to match the per-note channels you've assigned in LinnStrument. Go through each instance and change the pitch bend to 12 (the max that Kontakt allows) and set LinnStrument's Bend Range to 12 to match. Because Kontakt intelligently loads samples, it will share samples between all instances and therefore not use any more ram than one instance. Of course you will need a host that passes all MIDI channels to Kontakt.

[HarryLeBlanc]

Wow, what a useful hack. I'll give that a try to see how it works.
I've gotten good luck with taking the linnstrument out of mpe mode, and I can use aftertouch and pitch bend, which is a long way toward what I'm looking for.
Thanks, everyone, for all the support. It's been a journey, but I think I'm getting my brain wrapped around it.