Gain staging with VU meters

[OUNULK]

Hello, I am trying to understand how to do gain staging. I've started to use https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/mvmeter2 as a plugin on my master. I'm a bit confused by some of the advice I've read though. For example, the typical workflow, as I understood it, seems to be : solo each track and adjust gain so that the VU meter doesn't stay above 0 for too long. What I don\t understand is: after I do this, surely the accumulative volume of all the tracks will make the master too loud? What exactly is supposed to be done after adjusting the individual tracks in solo mode?

I would like to understand the correct workflow here.

[enroe]

Hello, I am trying to understand ...

I would like to understand the correct workflow here.

There is now correct workflow at all!

In the digital world, every mixer and every DAW works with 32-bit fp
or even with 64-bit fp. No matter how hard you try, you can't create
clipping! The level indicators are therefore only for visual entertainment
- they may go into the red at will.

There is only one exception: The last output - the master channel, you
have to pull it down so far that it doesn't go red. Because here the
digital signal migrates to the physical DA converter - and it can usually
only do 24-bit integers.

[mjudge55]

Hello, I am trying to understand how to do gain staging. I've started to use https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/mvmeter2 as a plugin on my master. I'm a bit confused by some of the advice I've read though. For example, the typical workflow, as I understood it, seems to be : solo each track and adjust gain so that the VU meter doesn't stay above 0 for too long. What I don\t understand is: after I do this, surely the accumulative volume of all the tracks will make the master too loud? What exactly is supposed to be done after adjusting the individual tracks in solo mode?

I would like to understand the correct workflow here.

Sometimes it will. The simple thing is to put a gain plugin before the VU meter on the master track and adjust it so you're getting the level you want on the master. The whole idea here is that any plugins on individual channels or on the master channel all receive reasonable levels.

[Spin Boyz]

Put hornet VU meter plugin as the first plugin on all of your tracks and let it do its thing. Don’t waste your time soloing the tracks.

[jethrobull]

Hello, I am trying to understand ...

I would like to understand the correct workflow here.

There is now correct workflow at all!

In the digital world, every mixer and every DAW works with 32-bit fp
or even with 64-bit fp. No matter how hard you try, you can't create
clipping! The level indicators are therefore only for visual entertainment
- they may go into the red at will.

There is only one exception: The last output - the master channel, you
have to pull it down so far that it doesn't go red. Because here the
digital signal migrates to the physical DA converter - and it can usually
only do 24-bit integers.

Exactly this!
Gainstaging = time wasted, if you're mixing itb.

[BertKoor]

Compressors etc are sensitive, they care what level you feed them, so ymmv

[Synthman2000]

Forget VU meters.

Start your mix with drum peaks at about -16dBFS and that is it the end of the matter.

[legendCNCD]

"Gain staging is the process of making sure the audio is set to an optimal level for the next processor in the chain in order to minimize noise and distortion."

In Ableton one can see the volume levels between plugins. If your host does not show these, you'll need to insert a plugin showing the volume of previous plugin.

Why to do this? So you do not end up gaining volume from plugin to plugin and driving SOME of them too hard. How can you be sure something did anything better if it just ramps up the volume? You want to audition them at the same volume. If you click plugin off from middle of the chain, no gain should drop or rise.

And yeah, some processors in digital domain are also sensitive to what level they get in. Good examples are the ones where "preamp" is available and included. I remember fighting NI Vari-comp back in the day, the reason why it sounded so muddy was the signal going in wayyy too hot.

[Harry_HH]

Yeah. And especially in analog modellings (plugins) the level which hits the plugin is relevant. Not all plugins include meter, therefore VU meter set for -18 db in the master bus helps optimizing the levels.

What surprizes me, is that none of the major so called ”complete metering suites” in the market include the VU meter - you must buy/get one separately.

[jethrobull]

Definitely something passed over from the analog/console days.
Andrew Scheps simply doesn't care..
https://youtu.be/HxFdgAWdb2Y

[Synthman2000]

VU meters in 2023 as much use as a concrete parachute. Only use is for historical context.

Unless you are somehow stuck with them on hardware.

The End.

[Harry_HH]

VU meters in 2023 as much use as a concrete parachute. Only use is for historical context.

Unless you are somehow stuck with them on hardware.

The End.

Your rear end, perhaps.

[legendCNCD]

Of course one can do it without gainstaging, but for me it is essential if I want to remove one fx from between the chain, the volume of the chain will not change. Now I can hear what I took off without the volume going down or up without the processor... There are a lot of plugins which actually like lower gain signal to go in, as said.

[Synthman2000]

VU meters in 2023 as much use as a concrete parachute. Only use is for historical context.

Unless you are somehow stuck with them on hardware.

The End.

Your rear end, perhaps.

If that is a joke or a dig it's a fail as it makes no sense.

In 2023 in a DAW, electronic music gain structure is starting your dominant sounds, which is often drums to keep in time with, unless doing ambient music and peaking them at about -16dBFS.

Then forget about metering and use your ears to compose and mix, no one hears your meters.

Recording vocals or any other sound source ? Then ensure there is plenty of headroom in your analogue signal path and hit between -16 and -12dBFS on peaks recording at 24 bit.

Then you can focus on important things, like quality and mixing properly.

I did not watch the pro's video on his non gain structure approach but he probably suggests he simply does not think about it because he started with knowledge that has worked time and again. He simply sets his peaky source to something sensible where he will not clip his master output or overdrive his analogue kit or emulated analogue plug ins. Then you can literally forget about needing to look at meters.

You can focus on the real work of composing and mixing.

This is engineering 101, it's literally the first thing an engineer learns. Because nothing says amateur hour more than distorted recordings or clipping your master output due to lack of headroom.

[kritikon]

Gain staging, does anyone still do it itb? I use quite a bit of hw so gain is definitely still a thing, and I absolutely am careful setting levels on everything. But itb...haven't given a rat's arse for gain staging for quite a while. It mostly doesn't matter. As mentioned, some plugins do behave differently at different levels, but I don't gravitate to those sort of plugins. For me, digital is digital and I want it that way - if I want to pretend it's analogue I use analogue. A sweeping generalization here - gain-staging is for hardware and real analogue, ignore it for itb (with the exception of dynamic pretend analogue if you use it).