MPE support public preview revision 15139 (ACE, Bazille, Diva, Hive)

[Fannon]

True that a mono/legato patch should not become poly, but absolutely not true that there's not much use of mpe with these patches. Being able to use the expressions and play mono/legato and have the expressions maintained separately per note is extremely useful.

Ok, fair point. If MPE can also make mono/legato better in this regard, I'm all for it.

Apart from that, EvilDragon and others have also suggested that setting the total number of voices to 1 could turn the whole system into a monophonic entity. Then, expressions do not just follow the notes on a channel but they also transition across channels to whatever is the latest note. This is going to be very difficult for us - it might never happen, or at leats not in our current synthesiser projects.

Thanks for the detailed explanation what's going on. I'm not entirely sure I got this point though. What would be the benefit of implementing it with 1 voice only? Wouldn't this be contradicting the MPE Mono Mode approach?

[Urs]

Apart from that, EvilDragon and others have also suggested that setting the total number of voices to 1 could turn the whole system into a monophonic entity. Then, expressions do not just follow the notes on a channel but they also transition across channels to whatever is the latest note. This is going to be very difficult for us - it might never happen, or at leats not in our current synthesiser projects.

Thanks for the detailed explanation what's going on. I'm not entirely sure I got this point though. What would be the benefit of implementing it with 1 voice only? Wouldn't this be contradicting the MPE Mono Mode approach?

The benefit of such a mode I guess is the possible virtuosity of a capable MPE-Controller being applied to a monophonic instrument.

In my view, it oscillates between being something stunning and being a bandaid for MPE controllers which can't be switched into their own true mono mode.

[Fannon]

CLAP Diva mono/legato works great with though!

Interesting. This works with Bitwig + CLAP, but doesn't work with Reaper 7 + CLAP. That's why I missed the feature.

[Fannon]

I've now looked into the Arp + MPE issue a bit (using Diva).

I think this works well in Bitwig + CLAP, because everything there is already transformed into "note expressions" on one channel. (Channel All -> 1 track setting).

But unfortunately it doesn't work with VST3 + MPE (Channel All -> Same).

I've tried out the Bitwig Arp and they got it right:
If you set Channel All -> 1, then it uses note expressions internally (?), but then you need to use Diva in CLAP mode for it to work.
If you set Channel All -> Same, then the Bitwig Arp will keep the channel separation intact and MPE still works with Diva VST3 version.

[sagetone]

Hi Urs,

I just updated Bazille to 15139. I usually use the Gearporn skin. MPE toggle shows up in the Original skin but not in Gearporn (unless it's somewhere I haven't found just yet). This is the case for both CLAP and VST3. (Not sure this is relevant, but I'm running Win 11, and DAW is Bitwig).

Thanks, Todd

[tasmaniandevil]

MPE toggle shows up in the Original skin but not in Gearporn

From the very first post in this thread:

activate the MPE button in the plugin (in Bazille and Hive, this button exists only in the original skin right now)

Once we release the next update, the MPE button will of course also appear in the Gearporn skin.

[pdxindy]

Hi Urs,

I just updated Bazille to 15139. I usually use the Gearporn skin. MPE toggle shows up in the Original skin but not in Gearporn (unless it's somewhere I haven't found just yet). This is the case for both CLAP and VST3. (Not sure this is relevant, but I'm running Win 11, and DAW is Bitwig).

Thanks, Todd

FYI - If you toggle the MPE to on in the original skin, then switch to gearporn skin, that works

[sagetone]

Doh... Thanks tasmaniandevil and pdxindy!!

[Hanz Meyzer]

Will you also support that vst plugin standalone mode for the new Kontrol SXY MK3 controllers, so preset management without using that komplete kontrol software?

[Urs]

Will you also support that vst plugin standalone mode for the new Kontrol SXY MK3 controllers, so preset management without using that komplete kontrol software?

I'm not sure we know what that is.

[Hanz Meyzer]

I forgot the exact naming, it was mentioned in some review videos of the MK3 controllers, that NI plans or is working on an api for full hardware support directly in added to vstis, not requiring that host-in-host vst wrapper plugin anymore... But maybe I completely misunderstood this... I neither have a NI controller so far. Just like Kontakt supports it.

[moss]

I forgot the exact naming, it was mentioned in some review videos of the MK3 controllers, that NI plans or is working on an api for full hardware support directly in added to vstis, not requiring that host-in-host vst wrapper plugin anymore... But maybe I completely misunderstood this... I neither have a NI controller so far. Just like Kontakt supports it.

The only change with the MK3 is that you can access the light guide with Kontakt without using the Komplete Kontrol software.

[Urs]

Ah, ok... I guess we'll get this if it's made available to 3rd parties. And if it is, it's probably reasonable effort, and then we'd go for it.

At this point however I (and thus probably we) do not know anything about it.

[Fannon]

As there had been some discussion around MPE in the Zebralette 3 thread (e.g. see Urs reply: viewtopic.php?p=8853238#p8853238), I want to write up some thoughts on my side here again:

First, I totally agree with Urs that this is a really difficult problem where there's probably no solution that will fit for all kinds of MPE controllers. The most prominent problem seems to be how differently MPE controllers handle Timbre / Slide / Y-Axis. For example the LinnStrument has very little Y axis, so modulating Timbre can only be done in very subtle ways. It's very different with Roli Seaboard.

To me the problem boils down to the following: I'd like to enable MPE globally, because I always want to have per note pitch bend and after touch. So far almost all u-he presets worked well with those two MPE modulations. But if timbre is assigned to Control A by default if I enable MPE, suddenly many presets will not work well anymore with the LinnStrument. It's hard to fault the presets here, because they were never designed with MPE in mind (or a particular fitting MPE controller).

So my main issue is that I'd like to have MPE enabled by default, but don't want Timbre to be assigned by default, because in many cases I first need to remove / change the modulations of Control A before I can play the patch with MPE enabled in a reasonable way. I would be perfectly fine if almost all patches don't have Timbre assigned, except they have been specifically designed for MPE (and likely also to the same kind of MPE device).

One solution I really like is how Vital did it: Have MPE Timbre as dedicated mod source and then allow it to be assigned to Macro Knobs. That allows you not only to pick which macros to modulate, but also how much, including defining expression "curves" (as pdxindy pointed out). The drawback here is that it adds one more mod source that most users won't care about and that also most presets won't provide. But if you have an MPE Controller, you can rather easily now make non MPE patches expressive, according to own taste and style of controller.

Just want to point this out as one potential solution, not insisting that this is the way it should be done. I can live with the Control A -> Timbre solution, but it really doesn't work well for me to be honest. Besides of that, MPE with the betas here works very well - and if I adjust the presets to my own needs the outlined Problems can be mitigated.

[pdxindy]

So my main issue is that I'd like to have MPE enabled by default, but don't want Timbre to be assigned by default, because in many cases I first need to remove / change the modulations of Control A before I can play the patch with MPE enabled in a reasonable way. I would be perfectly fine if almost all patches don't have Timbre assigned, except they have been specifically designed for MPE (and likely also to the same kind of MPE device).

If there were simple expression curves for Timbre and Pressure, you could draw a curve for the Linnstrument that keeps slight movement from doing anything and reduces the depth of modulation. A 2 point curve where the points can move around the X/Y axis' and draggable slope covers most use cases.

For MPE presets, Timbre should be assigned so users can take advantage of it. Timbre on Control A does that. Expression curves would give users some ability to control Timbre for individual controllers. The Expression Curves could have say 3-4 user defined snapshots for different controllers. Could also have a disable button. Lock the disable button and then you could switch presets and have no Timbre if that is what the user wants.


I do this currently in Bitwig with a Note Grid. I can adjust the curve for Timbre right there, including 'disabling' it. Works fine for me so I don't really care anymore if it's built-into a synth. But that doesn't help someone using u-he synths in a DAW that does not have expression curves.