"probably noob" question about mastering level

[Jac459]

Hello,

So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.

Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).

Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.

[enroe]

My experience is: It doesn't really matter the numerical value of LUFS-I. Because
every song is different - and it's always about how a song sounds. And depending on
your own preference: Some songs need more loudness, some musicians want more
loudness. But another wants his song to sound more “open” and “hi-fi”-like.

Therefore: Have more self-confidence! Listen carefully - and create exactly the
loudness that sounds best to you.

[jamcat]

If you just want loud, put out 4 minutes of white noise normalized to 0dB.

[Jac459]

My experience is: It doesn't really matter the numerical value of LUFS-I. Because
every song is different - and it's always about how a song sounds. And depending on
your own preference: Some songs need more loudness, some musicians want more
loudness. But another wants his song to sound more “open” and “hi-fi”-like.

Therefore: Have more self-confidence! Listen carefully - and create exactly the
loudness that sounds best to you.

Good advise! Thanks mate, .

[Jac459]

If you just want loud, put out 4 minutes of white noise normalized to 0dB.

What a value added remark .
Should I add a compressor ?

[jamcat]

No, use a clipper.

Anyways, the reason I said that is because an integrated LUFS of around -8 dB is in serious ear fatigue territory. People should want to listen to your music because it sounds good, not because it's loud.

I have the note in my signature for a reason: Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.

Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.

[kritikon]

Hello,

So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.

Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).

Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.

It's mostly just noise. When you check out a huge amount of modern music, not just electronic, is similarly loud. When I checked out a wide range of music, it surprised me how loud even pop and some sparser styles are. Adele is generally normalized by 5 or so dB on YT, so that's how much higher than -13 she is, and I'd expect that not to be the case, but it is. Plenty of other big names are very loud too. Oddly, U2 are generally not normalized in YT, yet I'd expect them to be fairly heavily squashed. Ultimately, even the big names with big label budgets and named producers/engineers and pro mastered make loud tracks.

Most modern music is fairly unsubtle, and unless you're instrumental or classical, most punters don't give a fk about dynamic range. Many of the mouthpieces that shout about loudness seem to be pro producers etc who themselves make loud music from the acts they get paid to produce. I don't aim for any particular level nowadays. I recently finished a track that I consider better than many I've made, which is dense techno-ey kinda style and has good impact at -14 LUFS, whereas some of my tracks need squishing up into single figures before they sound close. I wish I knew how to do that every time, but it's different every track. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "gospel" of dynamics, as it obvs doesn't apply to the real world, and especially not to electronic types. You know you've gone too far when it's becoming distorted is pretty well my only caveat. As to tiring the ears...meh. I don't listen to music long enough to do that. Probably most people don't either. Maybe I did when I was younger, but FFS - the occasions I had prolonged listening was at either gigs or clubs/raves, where bleeding ears was a desired endpoint. Dynamic range did not apply

[Jac459]

No, use a clipper.

Anyways, the reason I said that is because an integrated LUFS of around -8 dB is in serious ear fatigue territory. People should want to listen to your music because it sounds good, not because it's loud.

I have the note in my signature for a reason: Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.

Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.

I don't know. I am no expert, that's why I am asking in the forum.
But from a logical standpoint, I have a tendency to agree with the previous post saying that it certainly highly depends on the genre.
Surely the need for LUFS is not the same for the latest EDM or a jazz trio. The requirement for dynamic neither.
My point is just to have a consistent perceived loudness when placed in a Spotify playlist.

[Jac459]

Hello,

So clearly everywhere we can find the fact that we should master in true peak -1db and integrated LUFS -11db. There is a lot of theory about it and so on and so forth.

Yet when I am referencing my track with some "similar" genre, my track is always quieter... And when I publish on Spotify it is also the case.
So I already checked a Flac file of the latest track of the Chemical Brothers (these guys kind of know what they are doing lol) and the integrated LUFS is between -8 and -9db.
Thank yesterday I was looking at Anyma - Syren (the electro hit of 2023) and it is even worth and true peak is at a perfect 0db (at least when loading the Flac in RX10).

Somebody can explain that to me ? The FLAC I get are extracted from TIDAL.

It's mostly just noise. When you check out a huge amount of modern music, not just electronic, is similarly loud. When I checked out a wide range of music, it surprised me how loud even pop and some sparser styles are. Adele is generally normalized by 5 or so dB on YT, so that's how much higher than -13 she is, and I'd expect that not to be the case, but it is. Plenty of other big names are very loud too. Oddly, U2 are generally not normalized in YT, yet I'd expect them to be fairly heavily squashed. Ultimately, even the big names with big label budgets and named producers/engineers and pro mastered make loud tracks.

Most modern music is fairly unsubtle, and unless you're instrumental or classical, most punters don't give a fk about dynamic range. Many of the mouthpieces that shout about loudness seem to be pro producers etc who themselves make loud music from the acts they get paid to produce. I don't aim for any particular level nowadays. I recently finished a track that I consider better than many I've made, which is dense techno-ey kinda style and has good impact at -14 LUFS, whereas some of my tracks need squishing up into single figures before they sound close. I wish I knew how to do that every time, but it's different every track. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "gospel" of dynamics, as it obvs doesn't apply to the real world, and especially not to electronic types. You know you've gone too far when it's becoming distorted is pretty well my only caveat. As to tiring the ears...meh. I don't listen to music long enough to do that. Probably most people don't either. Maybe I did when I was younger, but FFS - the occasions I had prolonged listening was at either gigs or clubs/raves, where bleeding ears was a desired endpoint. Dynamic range did not apply

Yes, I agree.
I also have some tracks that were easier to mix and master than others...

On my side I don't pretend to make an awesome master, I just try to make a decent master.
To do that, I am just trying to suppress every possible problem of the mix, have a correct frequency response for the genre, and have an LUFS which is consistent for the genre.
That's where I got confused because I was trying to reference with external track without ever matching their perceived loudness, and then I discovered they were at -9 or more so basically I was having no chance to compete at -11....

[jamcat]

My point is just to have a consistent perceived loudness when placed in a Spotify playlist.

But Spotify applies LUFS normalization to all tracks as default, so it's all going to have the same perceived loudness coming out. Tracks that are above the -14 LUFS target get turned down, which means they're needlessly leaving dynamic range on the table.

You should master your tracks for each platform to maximize your DR and sound quality for their specific targets.

[Jac459]

My point is just to have a consistent perceived loudness when placed in a Spotify playlist.

But Spotify applies LUFS normalization to all tracks as default, so it's all going to have the same perceived loudness coming out. Tracks that are above the -14 LUFS target get turned down, which means they're needlessly leaving dynamic range on the table.

You should master your tracks for each platform to maximize your DR and sound quality for their specific targets.

Clearly in my experience the Integrated lufs is not a guaranty that the perceived loudness will be the same with multiple track of the same iLufs... (Even if it clearly helps)

My objective is just to blend with other tracks of the same genre in terms of perceived loudness.

[BertKoor]

Get so quiet they have to lean way in to hear it, then punch them in the face.

I think this is the reason Roger Waters starts his albums with the first ten seconds of his music buried in the dithering noise, so listeners turn it up.

[jamcat]

Same for the opening track on Disintegration from The Cure. The text in my signature actually comes from the album liner notes. I think they were goading people!

In fact, I think you would rather like Plainsong, it's essentially the theme from Sesame Street, played really slow.

[Monsieur_FyP]

Make the mix sound the best it can, and leave it up to the listener to set the volume level. You should be caring about dynamics, not decibels.