Android is essentially built around a clean room implementation of the Java Virtual Machine. Oracle sued them because they leveraged Java's API without their consent and the court ruled in their favour. I'm not sure whether it was a final ruling (ie. by the Supreme Court) but anyway it's the kind of decision that essentially makes all sorts of things technically unlawful.Music Engineer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:38 pmWhat is this precedent and the specific decision that people are up in arms about? Might this be relevant here?ampetrosillo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:57 am Anyway! Once upon a time, reverse-engineered implementations of an API were considered fair game, and in Europe they still are probably, but in the US there is precedent for making such a thing unlawful (and people are up in arms about a specific decision).
Bye bye VST2
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- KVRist
- 174 posts since 26 May, 2018
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- KVRist
- 355 posts since 24 Jul, 2006
You have it the wrong way around though, the supreme court ruled that Google's use was 'fair use' and APIs can't be copyrighted.ampetrosillo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:08 pm Android is essentially built around a clean room implementation of the Java Virtual Machine. Oracle sued them because they leveraged Java's API without their consent and the court ruled in their favour. I'm not sure whether it was a final ruling (ie. by the Supreme Court) but anyway it's the kind of decision that essentially makes all sorts of things technically unlawful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LL ... .#Decision
Europe ruled that 'software interfaces cannot be copyrighted' years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Pro ... em#Lawsuit
Steinberg would get nowhere in court.
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- KVRist
- 174 posts since 26 May, 2018
Oh, so it went ahead and it was overturned. I'm positive that one of the first decisions was actually in favour of Oracle.NikkiA wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:27 pmYou have it the wrong way around though, the supreme court ruled that Google's use was 'fair use' and APIs can't be copyrighted.ampetrosillo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:08 pm Android is essentially built around a clean room implementation of the Java Virtual Machine. Oracle sued them because they leveraged Java's API without their consent and the court ruled in their favour. I'm not sure whether it was a final ruling (ie. by the Supreme Court) but anyway it's the kind of decision that essentially makes all sorts of things technically unlawful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LL ... .#Decision
Europe ruled that 'software interfaces cannot be copyrighted' years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Pro ... em#Lawsuit
Steinberg would get nowhere in court.
In Europe anyway this would never have been a doubt.
- u-he
- 28065 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
And, as I'm pretty sure our lawyer told me, this has nothing to do with whatever we sign VST SDK license agreements for.
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- KVRist
- 174 posts since 26 May, 2018
I suppose what he referred to is that what is stated as a clean room design could be challenged in court as being simply a refactored copy of the original source as available to developers who sign the licence agreements. And that is a harder challenge to defend against.
- KVRian
- 1001 posts since 10 Oct, 2002 from Barcelona
Things we need:
Adapter to run VST2 as CLAP
Adapter to run DX as CLAP
Adapter to run AAX as CLAP
Adapter to run LV2 as CLAP
Adapter to run Buzz as CLAP
EDIT: ...ok, I need to add something here that is not really clear for some users, at least it wasn't for me. Some CLAP plugs work as VST3 with the same file, is it that way? The same file works both as CLAP AND VST3, and it seems that the same has been achieved with AU. Let's hope Polac does something in that way...
Adapter to run VST2 as CLAP
Adapter to run DX as CLAP
Adapter to run AAX as CLAP
Adapter to run LV2 as CLAP
Adapter to run Buzz as CLAP
EDIT: ...ok, I need to add something here that is not really clear for some users, at least it wasn't for me. Some CLAP plugs work as VST3 with the same file, is it that way? The same file works both as CLAP AND VST3, and it seems that the same has been achieved with AU. Let's hope Polac does something in that way...
Last edited by wikter on Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 2897 posts since 3 Mar, 2006
Yup - Wrap your old plugins as clap to use them in modern daws, or wrap your newer clap plugins as vst2 to use them in obsolete daws.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 6216 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
The question that's still not clear to me is if upgrades to our DAWs will have to come without VST2 support? I get no one is allowed to make new VST2 plugins, but what happens when Reaper 8 comes out? DP12? Live 13? Sonar whatever?
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- KVRist
- 201 posts since 26 Sep, 2017 from Berlin
It's time to get rid of all VST stuff as soon as possible. I hope every new version of a plugin will have a CLAP install on board. And after a couple of years no one will need steinbergs VST anymore. I think the only DAWs that will stay on VST will be Cubase and Ableton.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 6216 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
You kind of nail the reason it's wishful thinking right there. Cubase will likely always be VST 3 (4,5 etc.) only, Pro Tools will always be AAX only, and Logic AU only. Mostly what needs to happen is every other DAW needs to adopt CLAP, then CLAP becomes the underlying format that gets ported to the other three. Then the CLAP supporting DAWs can develop a solid stable format that ports to the proprietary ones.ckoe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:22 am It's time to get rid of all VST stuff as soon as possible. I hope every new version of a plugin will have a CLAP install on board. And after a couple of years no one will need steinbergs VST anymore. I think the only DAWs that will stay on VST will be Cubase and Ableton.
Ableton is already on Mac OS one of the half dozen DAWs that supports VS2, 3, and AU. I see no reason they won't support CLAP in the future here, it's just a matter of their slow adoption rate.
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- KVRAF
- 13090 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
This will still take a long time to turn CLAP into any kind of new "standard".machinesworking wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:58 am Mostly what needs to happen is every other DAW needs to adopt CLAP, then CLAP becomes the underlying format that gets ported to the other three. Then the CLAP supporting DAWs can develop a solid stable format that ports to the proprietary ones.
As said before, IMO it'd take one (or better more) of the big plugin companies to go CLAP only.
Ideally, along with that, they'd offer a wrapper for VST/AU/AAX but with a more or less clear notion that "feature XYZ will only be working with our non-wrapped CLAP versions!". That way, users of hosts without native CLAP support might start nagging the responsible developers to add it.
Doesn't read very likely to happen, though, I know.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505
- KVRAF
- 6216 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
I mean that's the best way for it to happen in terms of speed. Unlikely, but the best. The way it will probably happen is that CLAP becomes the plugin standard of choice for developers to code in initially, then all other standards become wrapped versions. The threat of this to a public that doesn't understand makes end users demand the CLAP plugin standard in their DAW, and eventually everyone is using it over VST and AU. Logic, Pro Tools and Cubendo continue to use their proprietary plugin formats. In the mean time Live, DP, Studio One, Sonar etc. eventually drop VST support 10-15 years from now.Sascha Franck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:19 pm This will still take a long time to turn CLAP into any kind of new "standard".
As said before, IMO it'd take one (or better more) of the big plugin companies to go CLAP only.
Ideally, along with that, they'd offer a wrapper for VST/AU/AAX but with a more or less clear notion that "feature XYZ will only be working with our non-wrapped CLAP versions!". That way, users of hosts without native CLAP support might start nagging the responsible developers to add it.
Doesn't read very likely to happen, though, I know.
Basically unless something changes the way I see it, CLAP is going to be a flavor of plugin in roughly half the DAWs in the next five-seven years, and at some point overtakes AU and VST, but by that time I'll be too old to care.
- KVRAF
- 3897 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO
The thing that would push CLAP adoption: if Ableton adopts it, then many plugin developers will follow.
If developers find cheaper to support CLAP and don't deal with VST3 SDK terms they might start abandoning the format at some point: FL Studio, Live, Logic, Protools, Bitwig wont need VST plugins, so Steinberg is going to end isolated, StudioOne could also adopt CLAP.
If developers find cheaper to support CLAP and don't deal with VST3 SDK terms they might start abandoning the format at some point: FL Studio, Live, Logic, Protools, Bitwig wont need VST plugins, so Steinberg is going to end isolated, StudioOne could also adopt CLAP.
dedication to flying