Is there a DAW that allows you to freeze multiple clips into 1 wav, then explode the wav back into the clips later?

[swivel]

Example use case:

- I make a 1 bar break consisting of 5 tracks, each track has different VSTi's and FX
- I select the 5 clips and "freeze" into 1 clip
- I can arrange copies of this drum break clip in my track as needed, it behaves like a wav
- I decide that I want a variation of the drum break, for example without the hihats track
- I explode the single clip break back into its original 5 tracks, mute the hh and freeze it into a second variation of the drum break clip
- I now have 2 different versions of the break, each using very little CPU as they are played as a frozen wav, that I can arrange and place wherever I want.
- If I want more variations, I can explode the clip, edit it and freeze it as another clip variation

[Michael L]

Why not just copy the break multitracks, make different versions, render each onto other tracks as wavs, and use the wavs while muting the original multitrack? Do it in advance or as needed.

[swivel]

Why not just copy the break multitracks, make different versions, render each onto other tracks as wavs, and use the wavs while muting the original multitrack? Do it in advance or as needed.

Because there would not be any link between the rendered wav and the muted tracks. This may be ok for a handful of clips, but it doesn't scale. I need the rendered wav to contain all the information I need to recreate itself. If I copy the wav into another project for example, that's all I should need to explode and edit the constituent parts. It's about ease of use and workflow.

[Michael L]

I see, then maybe you want non-destructive rendering like this:
http://reapertv.co.uk/reaper-tutorial-f ... ks-primer/
Other DAWs do similar, eg Live has a freeze/unfreeze, but not exploding wavs.

[swivel]

I see, then maybe you want non-destructive rendering like this:
http://reapertv.co.uk/reaper-tutorial-f ... ks-primer/
Other DAWs do similar, eg Live has a freeze/unfreeze, but not exploding wavs.

I use reaper so that would have been great, but this is just track freezing. Once it's frozen, you can't even really move the frozen clip around. What I'm looking is to freeze a bunch of clips on different tracks together into a wav that I can use as a wav, but that I can explode back into it's constituents to make edits.

[Greenstorm33]

It's not really freezing if you're not doing the entire track, it's a bounce in place. Bitwig lets you use bounce in place on the meta clip for a group track, resulting in an audio clip that moves around with the deactivated component clips. You are of course responsible for disabling the instrument/effects if that's what you want to do because there's no guarantee that you've bounced every clip in the track.

group bip.png

I'll also note that no version of bounce in place I've come across works if the sound has some kind of tail (e.g. reverb or release on a synth) because the resulting audio clip has to be the same length as the clip it's replacing.

[swivel]

In bitwig, I'm guessing that the wav on the group 2 track is just a wav and doesn't contain the information to recreate the 3 other tracks should you delete them?

[swivel]

Let me try and explain with a visual:

1) my drum break has 3 tracks, I select the 3 clips to freeze/render:



2) the rendered clip is on the top track in orange



3) I can delete the source tracks and make copies of the drum break



4) I can explode a drum break instance back into its constituent parts to edit it:



5) here I deleted one of the 3 layers:



6) render:



7) delete source tracks, now I have 2 drum break variations I can arrange and duplicate. I can edit them if needed even though I only have 1 track.

[sandandpaint]

reaper subprojects might be what you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0k7ph7Nnbo

[pdxindy]

It's not really freezing if you're not doing the entire track, it's a bounce in place. Bitwig lets you use bounce in place on the meta clip for a group track, resulting in an audio clip that moves around with the deactivated component clips. You are of course responsible for disabling the instrument/effects if that's what you want to do because there's no guarantee that you've bounced every clip in the track.

group bip.png

I'll also note that no version of bounce in place I've come across works if the sound has some kind of tail (e.g. reverb or release on a synth) because the resulting audio clip has to be the same length as the clip it's replacing.

Add an extra instrument track in the group and make a longer clip (empty) and the group Bounce in Place will be as long as the longest clip and catch the reverb tail.

Or you can make a time selection longer than the existing clips and that will also render a longer bounce in place with the reverb tail.

This works well in Bitwig.

[swivel]

reaper subprojects might be what you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0k7ph7Nnbo

OK thanks! A little clunky, but it is very close to what I was looking for. I'll have to see if it's really workable in practice.

I am not too keen on how reaper just puts the subproject .rpp file in the original project folder. I can see conflicts in the media items between project and subproject - I would like to see a folder for each subproject. I also see some difficulties in using subprojects from 1 project in another project without risking messing with the original. But I'll give it a go.

Is reaper the best implementation of the subproject concept, have other daws got anything similar?

[BertKoor]

There's a category of plugins called "loop slicers" that come close, even identical results to the example you gave. Your WAV gets sliced into 8, 16 or 32 slices, and by muting & rearranging the individual slices you get your variations.

Amen

[swivel]

There's a category of plugins called "loop slicers" that come close, even identical results to the example you gave. Your WAV gets sliced into 8, 16 or 32 slices, and by muting & rearranging the individual slices you get your variations.

Amen

Not quite the same unfortunately because this doesn't give you the ability to explode the wav back into its source components.

Reaper sub projects was what I was looking for (thanks sandandpaint!). From reaper manual:

A powerful feature of REAPER is the ability to build a master project that uses any number of subprojects, rather than having to store all your individual tracks, folders and media items within a single project file. This has many potential applications but is likely to be especially useful for projects which require a very large number of tracks or for sound design projects where you might wish to use subprojects to build a single overall audio item.

It could be improved and streamlined, but I think it's usable.

I am still curious if any other DAWs/music apps have implemented this concept, but it doesn't seem so.

[pdxindy]

I am still curious if any other DAWs/music apps have implemented this concept, but it doesn't seem so.

Greenstorm33 described how to do it in Bitwig.

[lfm]

I need the rendered wav to contain all the information I need to recreate itself. If I copy the wav into another project for example, that's all I should need to explode and edit the constituent parts. It's about ease of use and workflow.

Not sure how you even in theory think this could work?

You have woven a lot of audio information into one entity, and what could possibly make them restore to original clips.
- each sample is a mix of other audio

You can have metadata in a wav file to have timestamps so different clips are restored later, as I understand it. Never used it like this though.
- I think some daws look for such metadata

I often use to save a project as midi
- this makes all midi clips and timestamp for timeline in there
- this can be restored and moved to other daws
- I use this to move projects from one daw to another as example
- then use OMF for the audio stuff

If I send you a mixed down wave file, how would you go about splitting that into it's original clips?

It would be the Spectra Layer software or similar but you will loose quality and not able to recreate that clips as such. It's more for splitting instruments apart as I understand it. Certain audio profile can be extracted.

I think three possible ways to get closer(, if I get your intentions)
- clip groups in daw
- render to multichannel waves, not a stereo wave file
- export some clips as OMF

Clip groups
--------------
Select arbitrary clips and create a clip group of those
- these would then be treated and selected as one clip
- can be spread all over tracks

Render and make versions.

Cubase has track versions to name one daw. Samplitude has revolver tracks if that is similar, don't remember.

Cubase has track templates that you can save and later restore as they were. But it's an XML file with references and such.
- not sure it goes on individual clips where some included and some not
- full tracks I think only

Sonar/Cakewalk has something called MixRecall, where you can save different versions of a mix(in the same project file). Various options what to restore and such.
- don't remember if to select some tracks only
- never used it

Multichannel wav files
-----------------------------
Working with surround I did some 6 channel wav files and is treated as a single file.
- you play on stereo it will be mixed down as regular surround to stereo would.

I imagine you can use arbitrary number of channels, but not sure.

OMF file format
---------------------
It contains all tracks and clips that you export that you can explode later.
- but you have to make playable wav file separate