Very Important Request for Steel String Guitar

[Moonlight]

Hey Greg,

I've tried all guitar sample libraries and I love the tone of your guitar the most. But there is a big shortcoming in your guitar programming as well as all other guitar sample libraries - it's very unnatural strum. I have a great idea about how to make your guitar sounds 500% more natural! Please check picture below with descriptions.



The problem is - during strumming all guitar strings are playing at same volume. I'd like to set volume of each string for all keyswitches. Also I'd like to be able to set the amount of volume randomizing of each string during playing. These features will make guitar sounding a LOT more natural.

Also it would be great to have a little bit of ability to control randomizing. I'll try to describe. Right now I see that velocity layers are divided to zones. Something like 127-100, 99-80 (depending on user settings). So the controlling thing would be like - you take zone (for instance 127-100) and divide at half. String volume is 0dB. Randomizing for string is set to 25% (+-3dB). If I trigger velocity 100, then the string volume will be set to something like -2dB - -3dB. If I trigger velocity 110, then the string volume will be set to something like +1.5dB - -2dB. If I trigger velocity 127, then the string volume will be set to something like -0.5dB - +3dB. I hope you get the idea.

I think all users will be happy if you'll add volume settings for each string and volume randomizing for each string in nearest future. IMO this will make your product the most perfect on the market.

Also if you'll be able to add something to control randomizing (like I've described above) sometime in future - this will be really great as well! But I beg you - please add volume and randomizing settings for each string as soon as possible. This is real show stopper for me now (and I think for other users, who want to make realistic strumming).

Thanks!

[Gregjazz]

Interesting--one thing that you might check out is the "decay" control in the strumming patches. It controls the volume of each string during the strum, making the later notes in the strum be played quietly (the amount is controlled by the overall decay setting). That way you can make it so the very last notes in the strum are played quieter than the initially attacked strings.

I'll check out your per-string control idea, too.

[Moonlight]

Thanks, Greg! I've tried to make an example of how this may sound.

http://www.box.com/s/nx5ygjpr9odvp3fccxvn

First 3 hits is standard Steel String strumming. Last 3 hits is how it would sound with volume and randomizing I've suggested.

Also if you'll add true double tracking then this system + double tracking (with some strumming time randomizing) will sound amazing!

[Gregjazz]

Cool! Now that's just volume randomization, not velocity randomization, right? Velocity randomization would mean that it would trigger other velocity layers, which adds that element to randomization--not just a plain volume change.

[jkleban]

My own opinion on this is that NONE of the AUTO STRUM algo's work other than by luck or force huge compromises in the music... strumming is part of the magic of a guitar rhythm track and getting a controller that allows you to strum midi notes is the only way a sampled guitar comes close to creating realistic rhythms.

You can go the real expensive route with a REAL GOOD MIDI GUITAR and interface or pick up one of those plastic controllers that allow you to perform the strums with the rhythm you want when you want it.

So, if you don't want a real guitar but want realistic guitar parts, research this solution.

No DIS to Gregg... I know he gets it and is just trying to provide a tool for the masses.

Jim

[Gregjazz]

Yeah, strumming is tough to replicate realistically, even at this point in sampling. That's because there are so many elements involved in strumming--not just the timing and volumes/velocities of notes. In reality, the amount of pick that hits the strings, angle of the pick, angle of the strumming motion, and the grip on the pick are all elements that contribute to what makes strumming such a complex thing. And these elements aren't static either--they change in the middle of strumming patterns. Guitarists don't even usually think about these factors either, but obtain them naturally through focusing on the desired resulting sound rather than completely on the technique and subtleties that create that sound.

Physical modeling has a lot of potential in this area, because it can recreate those elements. However, the issue that both sampling and physical modeling encounter is having to actually model the player in order to determine those elements (pick grip, angle, things like that).

I think the future for virtual instruments isn't in any single synthesis method, but rather a hybrid that combines the strengths of each.

[Moonlight]

Greg, regarding my example. First 3 hits is just a C1 keyswitch downstroke hits in Worshipful preset. Last 3 hits it's F#1-B1 keyswitches triggered at same time (with a little time shift to emulate strum). I've set each note to different velocity (but as I remember they all were in same velocity zone) to show you how may sound this feature I've described in first post. Anyway, you can hear in my example that this solution sounds really realistic

[Moonlight]

So, Greg, is it possible to add such features to strumming patches?

[Gregjazz]

So, Greg, is it possible to add such features to strumming patches?

Should be, though it will probably be a feature that's built-in, just because I don't want to have too many very specific controls in the new interface--retaining simplicity by having fewer, more powerful controls.

[Moonlight]

You mean fully built-in, or it'll be like some kind of one-knob control? Anyway, I hope you got the idea and will make strumming sound a lot more realistic in upcoming update.

BTW, do you have any ETA on update? Will it be the same for acoustic and electric guitar? I have only acoustic guitar right now, but if update will be something that I'm expecting for, I'm going to buy electric guitar as well

[Bhan]

I think an easy way to offer variation with existing samples would be to assign random offsets to sample starts and or catch subtle variation of where within the attack transient the sample gets triggered. This may emulate pick angle and other small timing variances that I think are realistic playing techniques. Picks may be relaxed at the initial start of a strum stroke and tighten up along the stroke depending on a players physical feedback.

[Gregjazz]

You mean fully built-in, or it'll be like some kind of one-knob control? Anyway, I hope you got the idea and will make strumming sound a lot more realistic in upcoming update.

Not sure, I'm still figuring out that part. It might be similar to the "decay" function in the current version in terms of how it affects the volumes/velocities of the strings during strumming.

BTW, do you have any ETA on update? Will it be the same for acoustic and electric guitar? I have only acoustic guitar right now, but if update will be something that I'm expecting for, I'm going to buy electric guitar as well

The update will be the same for the acoustic and electric, which should be released in close succession. ETAs are tough for me to figure out, but I will say that my to-do list for the engine is getting shorter and shorter. The end is in sight, though there are a few odds and ends that I'll be working on during the beta testing period, such as the new PDF manual, factory presets (granted, I already have a bunch of these already made), and factory strumming patterns.

[J-Rokujuushi]

I don't want to have too many very specific controls in the new interface--retaining simplicity by having fewer, more powerful controls.

Without knowing all the details, this worries me a little. I'm not a keyboardist so I sequence my tracks by hand, and I like having as much control as possible so I can program my tracks exactly the way I want them (for example, I always use the Master Keyswitch patches so I can have manual access to every possible articulation rather than have the engine try to handle it automatically).

I'm totally cool with simplifying the interface, but I wouldn't want it to result in a lack of control.

[Gregjazz]

No need to worry, there's plenty of control as it is--you'll see. In fact, there are a lot of new controls and features that should make your life a lot easier in terms of being able to control exactly how things are played.

[J-Rokujuushi]

That's good to hear. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the new Evolution engine is capable of.