KVR Audio

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:18 am

Hello

I'm still exploring the various options for my future live setup.

Seeing that the information on a laptop's FW chipset is virtually unobtainable online, I wonder if performances would be acceptable with a firewire Expresscard based on the TI chipset (they see to be common) or if this would add latency? As opposed to a laptop with a "native" FW chipset, I mean.

thanks

d

bsork · Post by **bsork** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:04 pm

There are probably others out there with different experiences, but I have had no problems whatsoever after using a TI Expresscard instead of the built in interface. The latency seems to be the same.

I don't know whether it matters, but in my case, also the built-in is from TI, but the connection had gone bad. Stupid mini 4-pin plug with that over-size plastic body sticking out asking to be broken!

It was quicker, easier, cheaper and in the long run better over-all to buy a new card than getting the PC fixed.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:33 pm

Thanks Bsork that's good to know!

jcschild · Post by **jcschild** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:50 pm

95% of the time no it wont work.
i cant point ot any 1 or 2 things to say this will but this wont.

it litterally come down to get it in and test.

one of the 15" we sell that worked with everything now works for nothing.

we are scrambling trying to find a replacement... laptops and firewire at this point are a nightmare.

fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops

Scott
ADK

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:59 pm

Mmmh that's interesting and I guess you have more experience than I will ever have in the matter. So you'd recommend USB I suppose? I mean for laptop live use?

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:01 pm

jcschild wrote:95% of the time no it wont work.
i cant point ot any 1 or 2 things to say this will but this wont.

it litterally come down to get it in and test.

one of the 15" we sell that worked with everything now works for nothing.

we are scrambling trying to find a replacement... laptops and firewire at this point are a nightmare.

fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops

Scott
ADK

BTW Scott are you saying that even your laptops with TI chipset cannot be used reliably with FW interfaces? Or did I misunderstand your message?

dusted william · Post by **dusted william** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 pm

my firewire card works perfectly with my built in non TI firewire chipset.

I did however buy a firewire card as well, but might return. I read from Maudio that a firewire card, will be better than using the built in firewire for a laptop.

That's just what I read, but I haven't tried it out yet.

dw

Curois · Post by **Curois** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:10 pm

jcschild wrote:95% of the time no it wont work.
i cant point ot any 1 or 2 things to say this will but this wont.

it litterally come down to get it in and test.

one of the 15" we sell that worked with everything now works for nothing.

we are scrambling trying to find a replacement... laptops and firewire at this point are a nightmare.

fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops

Scott
ADK

I know Scott is right on this one. Putting a TI FW Expresscard in a laptop that has an internal non-TI FW interface won't solve the problem because the chipset that drives the expresscard interface is the same one that drives the "bad" FW port(s).
I must stress however that you can get lucky. My laptop (Asus M51sn) has a Ricoh chipset driving the FW port and the Expresscard interface. I bought a Belkin FW Expresscard that's TI driven, and all of the clicks, pops & bad latency on my Motu 828mkII vanished. I seem to have had a lot of luck. I didn't know about the expresscard interface screwing things up when I bought the laptop, so I though I was safe as long as I used an Expresscard FW interface instead of the internal one, and luckily I was

That said, the best advice Scott gave was: try it out for yourself before buying. You might be lucky with a model or two, but most of them with non-TI chips will work poorly with FW audio interfaces, no matter if you use an Expresscard FW solution or not.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:51 am

Curois wrote:
jcschild wrote:95% of the time no it wont work.
i cant point ot any 1 or 2 things to say this will but this wont.

it litterally come down to get it in and test.

one of the 15" we sell that worked with everything now works for nothing.

we are scrambling trying to find a replacement... laptops and firewire at this point are a nightmare.

fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops

Scott
ADK
I know Scott is right on this one. Putting a TI FW Expresscard in a laptop that has an internal non-TI FW interface won't solve the problem because the chipset that drives the expresscard interface is the same one that drives the "bad" FW port(s).
I must stress however that you can get lucky. My laptop (Asus M51sn) has a Ricoh chipset driving the FW port and the Expresscard interface. I bought a Belkin FW Expresscard that's TI driven, and all of the clicks, pops & bad latency on my Motu 828mkII vanished. I seem to have had a lot of luck. I didn't know about the expresscard interface screwing things up when I bought the laptop, so I though I was safe as long as I used an Expresscard FW interface instead of the internal one, and luckily I was
That said, the best advice Scott gave was: try it out for yourself before buying. You might be lucky with a model or two, but most of them with non-TI chips will work poorly with FW audio interfaces, no matter if you use an Expresscard FW solution or not.

Wouldn't deactivating the onboard FW chipset solve the problem though? I mean FW expresscard are initially meant for laptops without a FW port, so I can't see why the expresscard should need to be driven by the onboard FW chipset (?)

kazakore · Post by **kazakore** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:35 am

jcschild wrote:
fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops

How are the new D901Fs working out then? Got myself the last D901C from Kobalt for a reduced price just after they were released and it should last me a few years but interested to hear your experience.

dacaumodo: Read what Curois wrote. The ExpressCard and Firewire use the same chipset so you can't disable the firewire chipset and use the expresscard as they are one and the same thing.

You can disable devices that come off the chipset, which I have heard can be quite a lot of devices. I remember pointing out to Scott in the past that one of the models he used changed from using the TI to another chipset and he got it working satisfactorily by disabling the card reader, network interface, firewire and I think some more devices that all use the same bus and chipset. I guess this is more what you meant and although you may be lucky it sounds like it can be a major headache (hence why I bought the last of a machine that had just gone out of production but seemed to have been proved suitable all around.)

I think we should get a petition together to ask Clevo (or another manufacturer if you wish) to go back to using the TI chipset and nothing else in all their models

Out of interest anybody know how the Agere in the new MacBook Pros bear up? Not for me but a friend recently got one.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:02 am

kazakore wrote:
jcschild wrote:
fortunately our 17"s are fine.... arrghgh i hate laptops
How are the new D901Fs working out then? Got myself the last D901C from Kobalt for a reduced price just after they were released and it should last me a few years but interested to hear your experience.

dacaumodo: Read what Curois wrote. The ExpressCard and Firewire use the same chipset so you can't disable the firewire chipset and use the expresscard as they are one and the same thing.

You can disable devices that come off the chipset, which I have heard can be quite a lot of devices. I remember pointing out to Scott in the past that one of the models he used changed from using the TI to another chipset and he got it working satisfactorily by disabling the card reader, network interface, firewire and I think some more devices that all use the same bus and chipset. I guess this is more what you meant and although you may be lucky it sounds like it can be a major headache (hence why I bought the last of a machine that had just gone out of production but seemed to have been proved suitable all around.)

I think we should get a petition together to ask Clevo (or another manufacturer if you wish) to go back to using the TI chipset and nothing else in all their models

Out of interest anybody know how the Agere in the new MacBook Pros bear up? Not for me but a friend recently got one.

It's probably the limits of my knowledge of computers showing

I have a very hazy notion of what these chipsets are tbh.

Isn't the firewire chipset a specific component in the mobo? Or is there only ONE chipset in a Mobo?

Time to do some learning

jcschild · Post by **jcschild** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:41 pm

ok let me try to put this in a nutshell.

1) yes the new D900F is awesome even if it does not have TI firewire. need express card for firewire.

ok normal laptops.
each release keeps getting worse.
most montevina laptops do not have firewire of those that do NONE have TI.

0, nada, none, zip, dont exist.

95% of new laptops dont even come with firewire crappy chipset or not.
so whats a person to do.
well basically the same thing we do. test,test,test until you find one that works.
i used to be able to point to a set of "IFS" i no longer can point to anything that is concrete or even 1/2 way.

we have/had a 15" laptop that worked for everything. suddenly now it works for nothing or than USB.

so far we have tested yet another set of laptops to replace it and none work.
(anyone want to buy some laptops cheap? i cant send em back!)

i have 1 more coming tomorrow....

oh and almost always need a TI based firewire
Scott
ADK

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:59 pm

jcschild wrote: it literally comes down to get it in and test.

What he said. I was ignorant and lucky when I got my Toshiba laptop 3 years ago. All I thought you needed was a firewire port. It had it and it worked flawlessly with my MOTU 828 and M-Audio Firewire Solo. Still does. I have no idea what chipset it uses. It just works.

I wanted more power for home use, so I got a desktop machine. I ended up getting it at Best Buy. Honestly, my experience there was really good. The guy who helped me was pretty knowledgeable and even knew a bit about audio production, though he didn't know about the firewire chipset issue. I may have gotten it cheaper on line, but there I was able to go to each machine, pull up the device manager and find out what chipset the firewire was using. Easy Peasy. Also, 14 day return with no restock fee. Worth it's wait in gold. It would only be cheaper on line if I didn't value my time.

The good news is that other than a retarded Vista error installing the MOTU drivers (oh, I'm supposed to be born knowing you right click and choose "run as administrator!" even when I'm logged in as administrator!) All seems to have gone well and Live 8 works like a charm.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:44 pm

mmmh.... slightly deviating from topic but, suppose I dropped the idea of getting a FW interface, would there be a noticeable difference in performance between an Edirol FA 101 (firewire) and an Edirol UA 101 (usb2)? That is, if some of you guys have been able to compare the two. Don't think I'll have that luxury before buying.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:20 pm

Today I went to five different shops to try laptops for FW chipset. I can't say for sure how many models I tried more than once because I didn't take the names each time, but I only found one model with TI chipset, an end of the line Sony VAIO VGN CR422. Sadly the last model was the display one and lacked a battery, also it look a little under the weather so I didn't take it.

All the other brands I tried (hp, lenovo, Fujitsu Siemens, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, etc.) either had a Ricoh chipset or another one whose name I forget now.

I'll try again in a few days but it looks like FW might be the wrong choice if I don't want to shell out for a tailor made lappy.

Laptop + FW Expresscard + FW audio interface?