Spectrasonics Trilian...(Omnisphere v.1.1 now out with native x64 support!)

[sonkeysankey]

christianmusicmaker, I agree with what you say about the discussion. I too think the videos are very well-produced. I was thinking more of those who were nitpicking about the video recording and saying, more or less, that quality of basses doesn't matter since you don't hear them in isolation anyway - an opinion that pretty much amounts to dissmissing all virtual basses in the high-end segment out there.

Heaven forbid that anybody do that! Sacrilege!

I see that those who put up examples didn't do a very good job of it - they proved my point. You can't hear the difference in a MIX. You can only hear it in a solo. I don't listen to bass solos. I don't think most people do.
Tren's comments were perfectly valid and correct. Go and listen to music that is selling and which people are actually listening to. Listen to the synth basses - nobody is complaining because there is no round robin...

[sonkeysankey]

Except that the basis of the opinion is incorrect.

Repeated notes are extremely common in almost all popular music that uses Acoustic and Electric Bass. Without detailed, dynamic round robin samples - there is a huge difference in the result.

Please point us to some examples of what you are talking about, Eric. The music that most people are listening to, does not need detailed, dynamic round robin samples for bass. I have never, not once, listened to a song by one of the umpteen artists I like, which uses a synth bass, and thought that it would be better if the bass had round robin samples, or anything else that Trilian offers. Apparently hundreds of hugely successful artists also don't have a problem with it either, otherwise they would have made more effort programming their bass lines so as to vary the timbre from note to note. It simply is not necessary for MOST music.

It's the old machine-gun effect issue that's widely known and largely accepted. It has nothing to do with soloistic Bass music.

No, it isn't. What machine-gun effect are you describing? Could you name me some popular songs that I can listen to, which would show this?
Start with anything by Depeche Mode, Pet Shop Boys, Human League (go back as far as you like, so their synth technology was as old as possible), etc. How did they sell millions of records without anybody even mentioning the 'machine gun' effect of their very low tech (comparitively) basses?

No...I think you are not understanding the importance of features like round-robin and legato triggering in standard bass lines. These are things that every live bassist does naturally, even in punk rock bands.

Yes, but synth bassists don't bother, because it isn't necessary. It adds nothing to the song, because you can't HEAR it. You can certainly SEE the huge amount of work that you may have put into customising every note of a bass track, but 99.9% of your audience simply will not HEAR it - and therefore it is completely pointless and a waste of time for MOST music.

But please, point me in the direction of 'before' and 'after' songs, with the bass in a MIX, so that I can hear the difference. In all my years of listening to tens of thousands of songs by umpteen different artists, I've never once even thought about the bass instruments not being varied enough.

BTW, Trilian is not the only product to feature these ideas....they are widely accepted as important on virtually all new professional sample libraries....check around and you'll see that this is the case.

Are you talking about BASS libraries, or every other instrument? Because that is where the problem lies - bass doesn't need it, lots of other instruments do. I have no problem with that. You can hear it as clear as day on a violin, in a mix, etc.etc.

[paveloso]

Except that the basis of the opinion is incorrect.

Repeated notes are extremely common in almost all popular music that uses Acoustic and Electric Bass. Without detailed, dynamic round robin samples - there is a huge difference in the result.

Please point us to some examples of what you are talking about, Eric. The music that most people are listening to, does not need detailed, dynamic round robin samples for bass. I have never, not once, listened to a song by one of the umpteen artists I like, which uses a synth bass, and thought that it would be better if the bass had round robin samples, or anything else that Trilian offers. Apparently hundreds of hugely successful artists also don't have a problem with it either, otherwise they would have made more effort programming their bass lines so as to vary the timbre from note to note. It simply is not necessary for MOST music.

It's the old machine-gun effect issue that's widely known and largely accepted. It has nothing to do with soloistic Bass music.

No, it isn't. What machine-gun effect are you describing? Could you name me some popular songs that I can listen to, which would show this?
Start with anything by Depeche Mode, Pet Shop Boys, Human League (go back as far as you like, so their synth technology was as old as possible), etc. How did they sell millions of records without anybody even mentioning the 'machine gun' effect of their very low tech (comparitively) basses?

No...I think you are not understanding the importance of features like round-robin and legato triggering in standard bass lines. These are things that every live bassist does naturally, even in punk rock bands.

Yes, but synth bassists don't bother, because it isn't necessary. It adds nothing to the song, because you can't HEAR it. You can certainly SEE the huge amount of work that you may have put into customising every note of a bass track, but 99.9% of your audience simply will not HEAR it - and therefore it is completely pointless and a waste of time for MOST music.

But please, point me in the direction of 'before' and 'after' songs, with the bass in a MIX, so that I can hear the difference. In all my years of listening to tens of thousands of songs by umpteen different artists, I've never once even thought about the bass instruments not being varied enough.

BTW, Trilian is not the only product to feature these ideas....they are widely accepted as important on virtually all new professional sample libraries....check around and you'll see that this is the case.

Are you talking about BASS libraries, or every other instrument? Because that is where the problem lies - bass doesn't need it, lots of other instruments do. I have no problem with that. You can hear it as clear as day on a violin, in a mix, etc.etc.

Eric is obviously referring to round robbin in the acoustic and electric basses, not the synth ones.

Guess some people read what they want to read. Selective perception.

[djanthonyw]

Except that the basis of the opinion is incorrect.

Repeated notes are extremely common in almost all popular music that uses Acoustic and Electric Bass. Without detailed, dynamic round robin samples - there is a huge difference in the result.

Please point us to some examples of what you are talking about, Eric. The music that most people are listening to, does not need detailed, dynamic round robin samples for bass. I have never, not once, listened to a song by one of the umpteen artists I like, which uses a synth bass, and thought that it would be better if the bass had round robin samples, or anything else that Trilian offers. Apparently hundreds of hugely successful artists also don't have a problem with it either, otherwise they would have made more effort programming their bass lines so as to vary the timbre from note to note. It simply is not necessary for MOST music.

Before making anymore posts in this thread, why don't you reply to this one.. I think you forgot about it:

I think some interesting points have been raised on here thus far, and healthy debate about the actual importance of this product (from BOTH sides) should never be regarded as 'unpositive'. I for one am glad that this thread isn't one-sided, with everyone blindly praising the product, however seeing criticisers of the importance of this product being told to 'kill themselves' is frankly ridiculous.

I personally agree that this is a big sample library, and by and large bass within a mix does not require the level of articulation this product will provide. That, I guess, was the argument being put forward by sonkeysankey and he is definitely right; especially in pop/rock,

Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say.

Okay, Dr Wu - this track, for example:

http://www.vimeo.com/7392469

What exactly is Trilian doing with the main bassline, that is so special? I can't hear it. Some vibrato, and what else?

I can't use your MIDI file because I doubt Buzz will import it...

Couldn't you just easily substitute a 1MB bass sound, or a synth bass, and let us hear the difference?

For my side of the argument - just listen to 99% of the top 100 albums which use a synth of some description for the bass. How would you even hear Trilian, or care, in a song such as Kirsty Hawkshaw's "Reach for me" (Solasso Remix), or Adamski's "Killer", or anything by hundreds of other bands who use synths for their bass sounds?

by and large bass within a mix does not require the level of articulation this product will provide.

I don't hear anything special about the basses in your song demos, Dr Wu - what am I missing?

See-there is your problem.
Your knowledge of musicproduction seems to be not sufficient to understand whats going on in that bassline.
That particular bassline is using lots of X-notes, glisses, slides, stacattos you name it.
All good things that provide the spice that makes it sound realistic. Plus each note is round robin so if i hit the same note twice it will sound slightly different. Maybe thats to subtle for your perception. But i can certainly appreciate it.
But why dont you try it for yourself and see how far you can get with your tracker software.
here is a link to the midifile
enjoy
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/659430/Rule%20of%20Thumb.mid

[Lux Delux]

Mmmm can't wait to dip into this baby. Arrived yesterdy but still no time to drive it out it's proper usage

Guess it will be just in time with the Omni update. Can't wait to massacre that Chapman stick, it sounds gorgeous in the vids!

[ZenPunkHippy]

big scary troll picture

But ... but ... I wanna feed him .... such a cute ... troll ...

m .. u ... s ... t ... ...

.... r . e .. s .. i .. s .. t ..

... u .. r . g .. e .. s ..

[rlahalla]

Listen to the synth basses - nobody is complaining because there is no round robin...

Oh, I didn't know that Trillian was a synth bass module, thanks for pointing that out to me.

Also, because nobody complains, that means we should denounce a product that desires to achieve a higher standard? Think about what you're saying sometimes, would you? My brain hurts every time I read your posts.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Depeche Mode, Pet Shop Boys, Human League

well...i happen to think depeche mode are good but that's not the point

the mistake you continue to make is to keep bringing it back to synth-pop....all the things that others see as worlds ahead of what they have used before are really out of the paradigm you seem to be in....

it's fine that you don't understand it...really.....from what i understand if it doesn't sell...or doesn't register in your world it doesn't exist or isn't important

if sampletank is good enough for you...fine...i'm sure you get quite a decent "west end girls" from it

to clarify....round robin, articulation, library size, ram footprint are all to do with the parts of this instrument that aren't of relevance to you.....

this isn't a vst that i think you would need...it would be definite overkill...but that doesn't excuse you p*ssing in everybody elses patchbay

maybe one day you'll step out of the 80's influenced box that you are currently in and find, experience and maybe appreciate music that doesn't make the cover of smash hits (dated pre 1985).....music that wouldn't know what a synth bass was if it cussed them in a music forum

good luck

one more time...this synth is overkill for you........you'll realise it when your mate buys it and you spend all your time over at his place , still cussing

just a question....i might have missed it...but have we done stylus rmx yet....

[standalone]

Please point us to some examples of what you are talking about, Eric.

Us?. You and......who else?.

[Tren]

Well, I'm behind sonkeysankey. He hasn't said anything nasty or troll-like, he's simply entitled to his opinion that he doesn't think Trilian is a necessity, albeit it an opinion that he kind of keeps tainting by going on about synth basses instead of the acoustic/electric stuff which is the real issue here. Although in his defence, Pop/Rock doesn't even really need much realism in the bass sometimes. Most fans of the genre won't notice the difference with round-robins and clever multiple sample special effects, especially in a mix - it just gets buried - you can barely hear the subtleties of a bass part if at all. That is the point that sonkeysankey has made, and it is valid regardless of the fever currently surrounding a new product.

However, if multi-sampled high-end bass VST instruments are your thing and you want to create as realistic a bass part as possible, with minimum programming, that sound amazing when solo'd, I'm sure Trilian is the best thing on the market; it just isn't as essential as many other things that would be required for a piece of Pop/Rock music to be any good - that's before a listener tries to hear any intricacy in the bass part and that may be something that can't even be heard because of the busyness of the mix!!

[nasenmann]

What are you trying to prove, sonkeysankey?

Like you, I wouldn't need need all the details and feature richness of Trilian in most of my tunes.
However, I can easily imagine that other people do, and from the looks of it, it's the perfect tool if you want exposed bass to sound realistic.
And let's take a different example than the synth basses you keep talking about (which aren't the primary focus of the plugin as of yet anyway): a straightforward rock tune with the bass just playing 8ths. A simple bass patch without round robins might sound ok as long as it's covered up by the guitars and voice. But what if you want to include a section that only features bass & drums? You'll hear soon enough that the same samples will appear over and over. If you're talking about a 1mb patch, chances are it'll always be the same sample playing, and even with a 100 mb multisample patch, varying the velocities won't cut it forever.
Seems to me like you produce a style of (synthetic?) music in which you're happy with your small sample or synth patches, and you're lacking the imagination to think of possible appliances of an instrument like Trilian in other styles, for other musicians.

I'd really suggest putting an end to your own rants now. Your point has been understood i believe, and it's true, those examples of popular music you listed wouldn't really benefit from Trilian.
Speaking about myself though, there were times when i wished that my bass samples were up to the task of managing a convincing bass solo or fill or even just an exposed bassline consisting of 8ths, and it is frustrating when the quality of your instruments puts limits to the music you want to write.
Note I'm talking about generic rock/metal here, nothing exotic.

I'm sorry that someone told ya to kill yourself, but that doesn't render your opinion any less insular and, well, ignorant.

[7thangel]

i didn't realize that we all listen to the same music. news to me. i always thought i was partial to hip hop, funk, reggae, neo soul, etc...where there's an equal desire for simple and complex bass. a desire for electric, acoustic and synth bass. my bad.

here's a question, if i assume the audience doesn't care or hear the intricacies of my production, does that mean i shouldn't care too?

[Lux Delux]

here's a question, if i assume the audience doesn't care or hear the intricacies of my production, does that mean i shouldn't care too?

Dang right, I faithfully await Transformers 3 cause I know Bay just doesn't give a shit!

[Tren]

This is a forum where hopefully we can discuss whether a product suits our needs or not. I'm quite disappointed with the lack of intelligence or rather should I say debate over the merits of this product depending on the genre an individual is working on. If this was a Trilian drooling thread then fair enough but it's a reasoned debate about the necessity of the product - some don't see a need for it in their own work and are keen to express that on here to ensure their voice is heard and 'to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself' - i.e. those not in the know have both sides of the argument and all the information to make the correct judgement based on their own circumstances.

I'm sure it's a wonderful product but it's not for me and I'm sure some others who should be able to express so on here without getting attacked for being ignorant or whatever else.

[hibidy]

well, if it hasn't been said yet.......fish