Hey!

I just discovered that I need some practice on making a MOTIF on the piano.

I really find it hard following the motif throughout a song when I hear pitch-shifts on the piano such as going from A to E. The pitch is ofcourse necessary to make music. But since the tone is changing, it's hard to define the motif throughout the song.

I'm wondering if there's any excercises of this? what I need is some rhythm training on the piano. I cannot stand to think of "1...2...3... AND 4" etc, the syncopation I can play on the piano but I just cannot come up with an improvisation using rhythm. Or a unique/own rhythm.

Examples of what I do if I want to practice on changing the rhythm:

Simple example! I take, lets say "Hardwell - Zero 76" since I'm creating house/dance music. And playing the notes (since they're so easy to play, it's within' the C scale, fine.. making it easy in the beginning, nothing wrong about that, you could always transpose this in the end), but just to come up with a rhythm. Then I try to make my own rhythm using the same notes. But I fail so miserably. It's really HARD.

EDIT: I know how to play this rhythm of Hardwell - Zero 76 perfectly. That's not what I'm having problems with. I'm having problems with finding my own catchy rhythm, making my own. When I have a melody, I need to apply a rhythm/motif to it, otherwise it sounds utterly plain booring (example only playing on the 8ths or 16ths). I need the "swing" in it, by introducing some 16ths and maybe 32s, but I don't know where and when.

Link to Zero 76: motif starting @ 0.25; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfR0waKcuA0

Do you guys have any tips or own experiences of how to make a motif which is really catchy (just the rhythm) it could be a really easy pattern, the rest I can figure out myself. But I just want to get started to get a good motif and rhythm going!

Another great example of really "rhythmic" motif in the chorus is Tommy Trash - Cascade; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMLE4rXypfg @ 1.00.

This is the type of stuff I want to do. Some funky, groovy, great rhythms. I've tried for hours. HELP!

You can't have one with out the other. You can't have a rhythmic foundation without a un underlying reference to harmony in popular music.

There are several options on your treatment of melodic ideas over chord progressions.

One is,,, don't transpose/modulate to accomodate chord change. This will create a small amount of tension which naturally resolves when returning to the one.

Another concept to throw out there is Sequencing (the other "actual" sequening) usually using backstepping. A sequence is when you take a basic note grouping then move it foreward or backward. Say you've only got a linear or somewhat linear melodic idea. Play it. Then on the next round play the sequence stepping back one note. So if you have a simple "riff" that goes cde the next one is bcd and the next is abc Then you cap it. That in a nutshell is how hundreds if not thousands of bossa nova songs are written. Mot to mention countless scores of jazz, rock, melodic metal. funk, disco and many more styles.

As for not being able to hear the changes. That takes practice it also takes counting. If you are waiting to hear the change the change will be on top of you before you can do anything about it. You are writing your music. Count the beats /bars till the change and keep them in your head. Know were you are and where you are going. If you already know in measure 5 there is a change remember that in measure 4. It isn't sufficent to know where you are you have to know where you are going. Not doing that is like looking at your feet while walking. Your are so concerned where you are your not looking where you are going.

I play a lot of jazz, A lot of jazz. There are songs that have chord changes every two bars and keys can change every 4 bars. When I'm playing I know where I am perifrially and I know where I'm going. If you have your stuff down it's less about intellect and more about interact.

Also you are thinking twice as much as you are playing and thinking that every note has to be right all the time for all the right reasons. Your over intellectualization of the process is hindering your application. Plan so you don't have to think as much while your playing. If you are moving from lick a to lick b and lick be is over a different chord work lick a and lick be together. So you don't have that mental jump that says "what now?"

OK so I have a few follow-up questions about this:

you mean that alot of jazz, rock, melodc metal, funk, disco etc is actually made by SEQUENCING in, lets say Ableton / Logic? by moving it 1x16th back or forward or 8th or whatever?

Not by being played on the piano?

Also, one thing I've always wondered about is:

People say "think less, just play!" my question is: HOW?! how the heck can I play if I don't know if it's going to sound right? therefore, therefore is NEEDED for me, so I know WHERE I can turn, but I don't know. I just cannot sit down and play and get something good out of it...

I think you missed something or are intentionally ignoring it or don't understand it



The term sequencing in production is maligned meaning not the correct definition.
This is a pattern.
1234
This is a pattern repeated
1234,1234,1234,1234
This is a sequence based on the pattern but not a repeition.
1234,2345,3456,
Here is another sequenced pattern this time using the scale numbers of the diatonic scale.
1231,2342,3453.4564,5675,6716,7127,1231 etc

I agree I might be abit retarded/slow. And I understand the patterns you've writting down, and that's kinda what I meant when I said sequencing.. but how could this possibly help me?

it's too early for you to be thinking of writing, then. There is no way for anybody to build a cart to pull the horse of the experiences in music you never had.

well that's a kind of negative approach, isn't it?

I mean.. there must be some way to improve/practice on this, instead of just stopping because of one thing?

it's reality.

I didn't say stop, I said you haven't begun. You want to run but you have yet to crawl really. You are actually asking people to sort you out with words in place of getting any experience with the thing. This is an outcome of the computer age, having software to 'produce music with' leads you to believe you now have the tools. YOU DON'T, you by your own words have clearly stated this much.

'one thing'? THE thing.

When you have gotten your head, your hands, your body around other people's music TO EXECUTE IT you will have gained some experience with the components of the piece of music. Believe it or not, this idea you're going to be 'producing music' with no experience in music is extremely novel.
Last edited by jancivil on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

sure! get a pair of bongos and copy the drum parts in something you think is happening. I don't know. I can't tell you what you need to grasp that motif in the chorus. I do know that if you can't make that rhythm happen on another set of notes, this is a problem of experience.

This isn't really a music theory question; music theory will not replace music practice.

I must also address Mike's assertion 'you can't have one (rhythm) without the other (chords). That is not really a true statement. Some rhythms refer to a change or have a drive to a change. A motif, such as in that chorus at 1:00, can be strictly a rhythmic idea. That one is 2 dotted 8ths/2 sixteenths. You can't stand to count, well honey that's what you have to do at first, know where all the placements are.

jontah,

Either, you are a troll who is quite amused by your social experiment when you should be quite ashamed.

Or you simply should move onto something else because you lack the commitment. Your responses are always it's too hard. You don't want to apply yourself. Musial ability, musical knowledge they don't come by wishing. You have to want it hard enough that you do something for yourself that may be beyond your comfort level.

I wash my hands of this thread.

oh my.. you have no idea how bad I want this. I just don't know how to get there, therefore I posted this in hope of abit of a tips/tricks. Sure do that..

well, this is kind of true, you got the point right.. so.. your advice to me is to practice remaking others tunes/play others songs on the piano? I really want to get a hang on rhythm in overall, I know very much about music theory, but when it comes to express my feelings through piano/music, it's so much harder.. theory is theory, and practical is a whole other thing. I simply lack experience of this, as you say, but I'm so willing to gain the practice. I just don't know what's the right way and how to practice it.

Believe it or not I understand your frustration. I to have times when I'm frustrated trying to work out an idea or concept that is challenging. But I also perserver.

I kind of disagree with what some of what JC has to offer as I was writing my second week of playing guitar. Maybe not good nor great but I was actively pursing it. A lot of stubling blocks are created when we think it has to be perfect and fantastic and amazing the first time out. It doesn't happen like that. It also doesn't happen by selling yourself short. Reductionist theory is when you decide you couldn't do it on the first or second try so you give up or it doesn't sound the way you want it to or You've decided that everything must be in C and your afraid to hit any black notes for fear of failure. All that type of negative reductionist thinking sets you up for failure.

You obviously can, based on the fact that you can recognize what you *don't* like. Experienced musicians can hear something in their head and play it on their instrument and it sounds good. You and I hear something in our heads, play it on our instrument and…

The thing is, knowing that it sounds bad is the first step to getting it to sound good. Don't like what you just played? Change it to something you do like! It may take you a while to sort that out, but you'll get there.

I feel a lot of your pain. And I've read TONS about music theory and I'll tell you that it's only marginally helpful for getting started song writing. I'm not saying it's not important, but I will say that it's not necessary to make stuff that sounds good to you. Because the only thing you really need to make stuff that sounds good to you is your ears.

I started writing a song yesterday (I've not done much song writing / recording). I literally started off by hitting A on my piano a few times. That got boring so I hit A a few times and then I hit some other note. And I came up with a decent 8-note melody so I started adding some other notes in there to harmonize it. I wasn't thinking about chords in particular, just thinking of what sounded good. And then I repeated my melody a couple times, and when I felt it was time for a change, I changed it up. I tried different notes to end the melody, a grace note in there, whatever. But the main thing is that I played something I liked, and repeated it a few times and after I bit I got bored and instinctively knew it needed to change. I didn't know how it needed to change…so I just tried some stuff. I kept doing this for a while, just playing a little part and then changing it, and after about an hour I had the basis of a few parts for a new song! Not a fancy song, but one that I wrote and enjoyed playing and listening to. And my playing was still rough at this point because it's like learning any other song, you gotta practice. But along the way I had a lot of fun as I figured out where my song was going. I'd make a change like I said, and it would sound pretty good so I'd play that little bit a few times to build some muscle memory.

Go sit down at your piano and bang on a key. When you get bored, change it. If it sounds good, practice it and build on that. If it doesn't sound good, try something different. You'll eventually build up to something that you like. And you'll play lots of bits that you don't like along the way. I imagine that after lots of practice it'll be more fluid but for the time being we'll have to settle with a very low ratio of sounds good to sounds bad. But if you figure out what that good stuff is and then record it, you'll sound like a genius!

p.s.

I will say that music theory comes in handy for basic ideas on how to change stuff…like chord inversions and stuff. But that's something to study *in parallel* with your practice. You literally have all the tools you need to make music you like. All it takes is a sound-generating device and a pair of ears. And over time you'll get better at translating what's in your head to actual music in real time.

Honestly much comes down to meter more then note selection in regards to what "Sounds good" unless you are playing it on an out of tune instrument.

Maybe it's simply a confidence issue. Some people have a great idea stuck in their head but the stutter with thier fingers getting the idea out. This is where practicing patterns, scalar sequences and progressions helps because it helps to build confidence and muscle memory. As well as lots of other stuff like ability.

Maybe it's a sense of meter. Practicing un accompanied give one no reference to time signature or bpm or style. So someone who has an idea drops a drum loop and the line doesn't sync up from what's in their head with what they are playing. Well that's another thing that practicing with a metronome does. If you can count the beat as you play and you have a running memory of where the beats fall then when you decide to drop a loop in you can think about adjusting the tempo so it fits the idea rather then the other way round.

And there are also lots of other maybe's associated with timeing. Not all melodic phrases start on "the one" If you don't have experience playing that way ie purposefully rather then accidentlally not starting on the first beat of the first measure you are not going to be able to see it/hear it for what it is. That's another area where practicing, listening to what others are doing and counting the beat come in handy. You start to notice things like "Hey this guy is coming in on the and of four it's pushing into the next measure rather then landing on it." Or, What person X is doing is a syncopated rhythm and so forth.

Now some people are like JanCivil I respect her for her abilities and knowledge though we disagree quite a lot. Jan was blessed by a great parent and starting her musical voyage young in life and keeping up with it. She got a lot of positive feedback which really helps in the early stages.

Other people are not like Jan, They don't have a teacher saying you will complete X by Y date and you need to work on this and you are doing this well.
They may not be getting feedback from anyone and all the idea's are trapped in their head without a means out because they struggle with the insecurities of imperfection and they throw in the towel to early or don't know how to plot a progress graph like a teacher would. How far they've come and how far do they need to go. It's not something you can do when it's all trapped in your head. And people don't know how to give themselves goals and pat themselves on the back or give themselves constructive criticism. Little things like...lets take this tempo down a bit and work through the rough patch then go back to the beginning at the slower tempo. When we get it down at the slower tempo we are going to do it ten times before bringing the tempo up just a little and try it from there. That's the type of discipline that you can't learn from a book or a video. And even if you can't ever bring it up to the tempo you want it to you've still come further for the effort then you would without it.