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Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

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spaceman
KVRAF
 
8175 posts since 9 Jan, 2004, from leroyaumeuni

Postby spaceman; Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:40 am

zvenx wrote:
musikmachine wrote:Interview here with some guy called Ernst :hihi:

that's one annoying interviewer....

goodness gracious.
rsp

Yes, why do they always pick socially awkward guys for this who look drunk, stoned or stuck in a 12 year old's mindset?
My other host is Bruce Forsyth
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christianmusicmaker
KVRAF
 
1664 posts since 1 Feb, 2004, from UK

Postby christianmusicmaker; Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:42 am

CMM notes on "RE"

Part 1

IMO if there really is no way to avoid paying again for a RE version of an existing VST one may already own then that is going to be a problem for the uptake of Props new plugin format IMO. I cannot see any way around that. I cannot beleive the vast majority of people using VST/ VSTi's would want to buy another plugin format of the same plugin they already own. Yes a number of people clearly are interested in that but Props would need the vast majority of VST users to make this new plugin format work commercially. Not likely to happen. Not nearly likely.

Whichever way I Reason with this, connecting the wires to the Propellers here still makes them spin the same way....

1. As has been said already by a few, VST prices might be raised to compensate for RE dev time. Might be ok for Reason users but if you do not use Reason?

2. Devs clearly will have to spend more time on another format. Might be less for some devs but likely not necessarily that exciting a development for really small dev setups who might struggle with another format to manage. Or even larger devs who might have to spend a huge amount of time coding an RE version of a particularly complex VSTi or their entire roster of plugs.

3. What will be the incentive to pay for another version of the plugin you already have? Different features? If so how many? The more added the more time to code probably which could lead to Props RE version being more than little bit more expensive compared to VST version which could very well lead to...
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christianmusicmaker
KVRAF
 
1664 posts since 1 Feb, 2004, from UK

Postby christianmusicmaker; Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:46 am

CMM notes on "RE"

Part 2

4. Props versions could potentially be more fully featured and as a result the premium version of devs plugins That might not please too many VST users who do not use Reason or plan to. It is of course up to the devs as to how they sell their products but the way I am seeing this..RE versions might end up costing more than VST versions...that 30% cut that the Props want will surely have to be factored into the price of an RE version, surely. Why code at a loss compared to VST?

5. Props are taking a huge gamble on Reason using 3rd party VST's as being enough of a draw to pull people away from their existing VST hosts. Really I cannot see a huge exodus from other hosts to Reason as much as I like the RE idea. I just cannot see it. For that to happen a non Reason user will have to set aside costs for the following...

a. Buying Reason (even if it is just Reason Essential that is still about $99)

b. Buying RE versions of their existing plugs again = $??? that could be very costly long term.

So IMO it boils down to this...will using Reason and using CV routing e.t.c be enough to pull users from other hosts to go through that double price point to get RE's and use them in Reason? I seriously doubt that will happen anytime soon. Indeed I think some host devs might now be thinking of a way to mirror if not better the routing possibilities in Reason to nulify any advantage of RE. That is more likely to happen before mass numbers switch to Reason IMO. A modular patch VSTi might even be coded (like EXT) soon enough.

Great idea from the Props but the additional cost of ownership is likely to slow down new customer RE take up considerably IMO. No question about it RE is a new plugin format that is a rival to VST.

It certainly presents a potentially awkward choice for most VST users IMO. If the Props had cut out the need for a 30% cut then RE would stand a much better chance of succeeding. Devs could potentially keep their VST prices the same (maybe) or give free cross grades to "RE" versions. Very little chance of that now. Nice to see that RE as a plugin format appears here to stay, but it will be even more interesting to see where it all goes from here. :wink:
headquest
KVRAF
 
7475 posts since 6 Jul, 2004

Postby headquest; Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:49 am

Interesting quote from an insider/developer in the comments to the CDM blog entry on this:

Magnus Lidström wrote:Naturally, because it is a new format we will initially see fairly straight ports of existing plug-ins that *fit* this format (plug-ins that don't fit simply can't be ported), but Propellerheads is staking out a route that will take us beyond ports. I would almost claim that they have taken measures to *prevent* porting (although sharing DSP-code between your VST/AU/etc and RE is still easy).

There are *very* strict limitations to what you can and are allowed to do GUI-wise and to some extent even how things look because RE uses full 3D-models and PH decides lighting etc.
Some developers may do this format as well as VST/AU, some will *only* do this format (trust me, using the RE SDK will be the quickest way for a new DSP-developer to create full featured cross-platform products). Of course a lot of existing devs won't care, ever. Just like you don't see every game manufacturers do Nintendo DS games or all OS X developers do iPad-development. (Coincidentally, the best DS games and iPad apps are never the simple ports.)

Details of the shop are still being worked out. Hopefully we can create discount-codes etc already from day 1. But I don't primarily expect VST/AU users to jump on this. This is a format created to let Reason users buy 3rd party stuff for their beloved rack. Reason users love their rack more than people love DAWs in general IMO and this is going to be a blessing for them and a business opportunity for us.
5.1
KVRist
 
159 posts since 18 Jul, 2005, from Australia

Postby 5.1; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:00 am

headquest wrote:Interesting quote from an insider/developer in the comments to the CDM blog entry on this:

Magnus Lidström wrote:...But I don't primarily expect VST/AU users to jump on this. This is a format created to let Reason users buy 3rd party stuff for their beloved rack. Reason users love their rack more than people love DAWs in general IMO and this is going to be a blessing for them and a business opportunity for us.


Great quote. Maybe the Reason-only user base is big enough to survive on its own? Maybe that's why they don't need to support VST?
:)
headquest
KVRAF
 
7475 posts since 6 Jul, 2004

Postby headquest; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:04 am

@ CMM - some interesting points :)

I suspect that porting VSTs is not what this is ultimately about, although in the early stages it's likely that some of the more simple VST instruments and effects would see ports so that developers have a quick way to test the waters and see if Re is going to work for their businesses. Just as Urs is porting Uhbik but NOT porting Zebra, Diva or ACE. It's an opportunity to see how the process works, but simply copy the DSP from an existing and fairly straight-forward VST as a proof of concept.

Beyond that, I think we will see separate instruments and effects developed for Re that are different entirely from the major VSTs out there... ones which play to the stgrengths of Reason while also dealing with its limitations.

As for whether this will attract users of other DAWs to switch to the Reason platform... like you, I very much doubt that will happen. But unlike you I don't think cost is the factor I would highlight - I think that many users of other DAWs simply wouldn't like Reason's many other limitations - e.g. no MIDI OUT, very limited audio editing, reliance on three separate windows to get basic stuff done, etc. People who have experienced and enjoyed the depth and power of programmes like Pro Tools, Nuendo, Sonar, or even Reaper simply aren't going to want to switch to software that is as limited as Reason any time soon.

And because of that I see absolutely no danger of Re posing a serious threat to VST any time soon either. Impressive though Reason's market share is for a programme that has taken such a long-term isolationist approach, the fact remains that all the major developers will continue to see a bigger market with VST, AU, and AAS.
headquest
KVRAF
 
7475 posts since 6 Jul, 2004

Postby headquest; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:06 am

5.1 wrote: Great quote. Maybe the Reason-only user base is big enough to survive on its own? Maybe that's why they don't need to support VST?
:)


Exactly. But I think they DID need to make Re in order to survive, given how dated their own devices are compared to VST equivalents at this point (for example, NN-XT remains their top sampler platform but hasn't been updated for ten years!) This move will stem the exodus from Reason to other platforms.
liquid wind
KVRist
 
84 posts since 26 Oct, 2009

Postby liquid wind; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:09 am

I'm also thinking that maybe the props requested some of the specific plugs that are going to be available at launch, Urs bringing Uhbik over = instant end to the situation of Reason only users employing effects that are worse than VST freeware. As far as ports go it makes sense for them because it fills a pretty big need. This probably also enables them to focus more on the core program and maybe improve that sequencer, if they don't have to create all of their own synths and effects. Reason's development has been pretty sluggish so you have to wonder how much the isolationist approach drained them
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christianmusicmaker
KVRAF
 
1664 posts since 1 Feb, 2004, from UK

Postby christianmusicmaker; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:22 am

headquest wrote:@ CMM - some interesting points :)


Cheers!. :)

I suspect that porting VSTs is not what this is ultimately about, although in the early stages it's likely that some of the more simple VST instruments and effects would see ports so that developers have a quick way to test the waters and see if Re is going to work for their businesses. Just as Urs is porting Uhbik but NOT porting Zebra, Diva or ACE. It's an opportunity to see how the process works, but simply copy the DSP from an existing and fairly straight-forward VST as a proof of concept.

Beyond that, I think we will see separate instruments and effects developed for Re that are different entirely from the major VSTs out there... ones which play to the stgrengths of Reason while also dealing with its limitations.


Quite fascinating. I don't think there has been a situation with DAW plugin development that provides a single product with two versions having different functionality. The potential is there for RE to be a success but there will likely need to be some very creative pricing and marketing to renew peoples thinking towards plugin purchases. Currently you buy a functionally complete product that is 99% (or similar) functionally across any plugin format supported. "RE" looks like it will totally change that.

Indeed "RE" versions might be better sold as a 100% different product altogether by Devs. That might make it much more commercially viable and acceptable to customers but ports likely less so. Time will tell.


As for whether this will attract users of other DAWs to switch to the Reason platform... like you, I very much doubt that will happen. But unlike you I don't think cost is the factor I would highlight - I think that many users of other DAWs simply wouldn't like Reason's many other limitations - e.g. no MIDI OUT, very limited audio editing, reliance on three separate windows to get basic stuff done, etc. People who have experienced and enjoyed the depth and power of programmes like Pro Tools, Nuendo, Sonar, or even Reaper simply aren't going to want to switch to software that is as limited as Reason any time soon.


True. I would agree with that. :)

And because of that I see absolutely no danger of Re posing a serious threat to VST any time soon either. Impressive though Reason's market share is for a programme that has taken such a long-term isolationist approach, the fact remains that all the major developers will continue to see a bigger market with VST, AU, and AAS.


Agreed. :wink:
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
21475 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:26 am

I may have missed this in the flurry, but doesn't this mean Reason projects (and Combinators) will no longer be guaranteed to be completely 'portable' between different users' system?
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spaceman
KVRAF
 
8175 posts since 9 Jan, 2004, from leroyaumeuni

Postby spaceman; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:29 am

I think it's a smart business move from the Props and a welcome extension for many Reason users.

I don't need any extra 'plugins' in Reason. Malstrom, Thor and NN-XT are going to keep me busy for many years to come and the current set of effects are top class, in my opinion. But I can understand that, for professionals and more advanced amateurs, this addition will be very welcome indeed.

Personally, I'd prefer to see some sequencer and usability tweaks myself. They should include Recycle in the package as well and include some extra audio editing functionality.
My other host is Bruce Forsyth
Anosou
KVRist
 
86 posts since 22 Jul, 2011, from Stockholm, Sweden

Postby Anosou; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:33 am

Here's the video of yesterday's press conference, hope it answers some of your questions and explains a bit why we did it.

Rack Extensions and Figure App Technology Preview - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIsBdvLaCEY
Synthbuilder
KVRist
 
358 posts since 17 Mar, 2005, from Cumbria, England

Postby Synthbuilder; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:34 am

whyterabbyt wrote:I may have missed this in the flurry, but doesn't this mean Reason projects (and Combinators) will no longer be guaranteed to be completely 'portable' between different users' system?


This is true. But then refills created a similar problem. Not having the right sample was always a bit of a downer. This may have changed in R6 though.

Tony
colin@loomer
KVRian
 
788 posts since 25 Aug, 2003, from Bournemouth, UK

Postby colin@loomer; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:36 am

whyterabbyt wrote:but doesn't this mean Reason projects (and Combinators) will no longer be guaranteed to be completely 'portable' between different users' system?
I'd assume so, but hasn't this been the case since year dot with their Refills anyway? And I guess they *could* do something clever here: seeing as they have control of the distribution, it would probably be possible for Reason to automatically download evaluations of any missing Re plug-ins.

EDIT: Beaten by the speedy fingers of Synthbuilder.
Shift from Loomer: Diatonic Granular Pitch Shifting Delay (AU, RTAS, & VST for Mac OS X, Windows, & Linux)
headquest
KVRAF
 
7475 posts since 6 Jul, 2004

Postby headquest; Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:41 am

Using the 30 day evaluation for missing Re plugs is the answer PH gave elsewhere.

Only works if you've not used up the 30 day evaluation previously though. At which point presumably you have to buy the same Re devices that your friends and collaborators have in order to keep working together.

I guess the trick is to collaborate with cheapskates, or else bounce everything ;)
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