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Dance/House melody + melody rhythm

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

jancivil
KVRAF
 
9490 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:41 pm

Functional wrote:It's really unreasonable to say that doing everything in your DAW is the wrong way. It's a possible way and for some people, I'm sure, it's the better way.

Doing everything from the git-go in the DAW like that (as if it gets you around learning an instrument) is going to reduce your chances of 'the educated guess', and the whole idea is just anti-growth. As skankfiddle has said, you want to stay to your zone of comfort.

Now you have boldly claimed certainty, "better for some". Who has done better?

You? versus the you that got busy, in the alternate timeline of you having done more than you're doing, and the present inaction turned out better? Why is it better?

What part of 'writing music' is going to go better for someone with less knowledge??? Please model that for us.

You're only kidding yourself, you're only cheating yourself.
Functional
KVRist
 
150 posts since 26 Oct, 2011

Postby Functional; Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:41 pm

There are disorders that may make sme people unable to play a guitar, piano or other instruments. For these people, I'm sure that a DAW is just a much easier, simpler way.

Though yes, there has been in the past, people who have had all kinds of problems with their fingers and hands, yet still have found an unique compromise of playing instruments that require these hands.

But why go through all the trouble now?


And well, you're talking about real instruments, playing them and so forth. How about electronic music genre? So many sounds that are out of existance in the real world, how can you fake them and to what kind of audience? The thread is about house music, which indeed, is one type of electronic music that more often than not has no real instruments. Just synthetic sounds. Insanely fast tempos with melodies that can't be played just by the average pianist.


So I still disagree that to make music, by default, you should know a real instrument. I'm sure it might help you one way or another, but I doubt it's going to be that significant.

And I do play a piano, since we have one. This isn't about me.


EDIT: Wasn't actually referring to house music with the tempo. More like hardstyle and D&B, 128 ain't too fast.
Last edited by Functional on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Loki Fuego
KVRian
 
648 posts since 30 Aug, 2011, from somewhere in universe

Postby Loki Fuego; Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:51 pm

jancivil wrote:
Loki Fuego wrote:
jancivil wrote:Now I can 'fake' many, even most things. There's a connection.

You are implying your superior intelligence to the extent you can skip all this. I say you're kidding yourself.
Show proof of concept, post your melodies you 'composed', do.


Try thinking out of the box...

1. I am not trying to 'fake' real instruments. It's waste of time and it's stupid, because it's easier to play the real one or find someone who plays the real one.
2. I can compose something that you wouldn't be able to play and it would sound musical.

In order to satisfy your interest, here's the song I made ten years ago, before I learned playing any instrument at all (everything was done in Jeskola Buzz):
http://soundcloud.com/lokifuego/revolution-n2-anarchy
yeah, that's some bullshit. That's a metal kind of guitar sound, it isn't new to me, it isn't any new instrument or approach, it's an attempt to recreate something as you hear it. Which is no problem, but what it does not show me is how you aren't faking real instruments.

So what? If you wonder how I'm not faking real instrument just listen to the next track I posted.
Last edited by Loki Fuego on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wonder whether my advice worth a penny? Check my music at Soundcloud and decide for yourself.
re:vibe and Loki Fuego @ Soundcloud
Loki Fuego
KVRian
 
648 posts since 30 Aug, 2011, from somewhere in universe

Postby Loki Fuego; Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:06 pm

jancivil wrote:
D.Josef wrote:
I think putting music coders down for not playing an instrument is elitist and sort of stuck-up, but on the other hand, you know, if you can code a piano roll, then you bloody well know how to play a keyboard.
If someone believes they can bypass musical skills and make as good a music as they would doing the work that WILL make you better, that delusion needs to be countered for the impressionable youth or whatever that happen by and read it; it's false, and I'm telling youse the truth.

Don't confuse your own opinion with the truth.

1. Music theory would help to make a better music, but it's not a prerequisite. You can make good music without knowing music theory.
2. Playing a real instrument would help to make a better music, but it's not a prerequisite. You can make good music without playing real instrument.
3. Dedicating yourself to studying music theory and playing an instrument will just help you to learn music theory and to play the instrument.
4. Knowing music theory and playing instrument won't help to make good music, unless you dedicate yourself to the art.
5. If you dedicate yourself to the art, you will one way or another learn the skills which are really necessary to make good music.
6. Arguing with jancivil will not help you to make a better music. If you get too involved in that, it would be just a waste of time.
Wonder whether my advice worth a penny? Check my music at Soundcloud and decide for yourself.
re:vibe and Loki Fuego @ Soundcloud
D.Josef
KVRist
 
103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012

Postby D.Josef; Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:15 am

jancivil wrote:bullshit. I rule the piano roll. I cannot play piano particularly well. In objective terms, I'm just no good at it. However I know my intervals, from around. *knowing how* to play it would mean I could do a better job at it. that would involve, you know, experience with fingerings and position. it won't be teste any way other than 'play this and show me you can'.


There is no disagreement between us. What I wanted to say was that if someone already has the connection between the visual layout of the keyboard and musical notes and intervals, then even if one is "no good at it", a physical keyboard shouldn't be all that scary and alien.

And yes, I never said you don't have to learn fingerings and position, those make up a huge part of being a pianist, but you know, I do think it's bloody worth it. :D
Nystul
KVRist
 
420 posts since 30 Apr, 2007

Postby Nystul; Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:14 am

I don't mean this as an insult but just a reflection on the digression this thread took. I'm not sure how much musical training is needed for some of these dance genres because there is so little traditional composition involved. The track linked in the original post has a nice 4 bar riff and a 4 note bass line. Aside from the drum parts which are very basic and typical, this is pretty much the extent of the composition. If one played guitar or something they could jam for an hour and come with hundreds of "compositions" like this. But if you only need one I don't see why playing an instrument would be required. Besides you can always borrow the riff from someone else. The real skill seems to be in slowly building up the sound of the parts, then dropping everything out, changing up the drums, etc. to get drunk party people to bounce around for 5 or 10 minutes to the same 10 notes.
shankfiddle
KVRist
 
112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011

Postby shankfiddle; Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:20 am

Arguing with jan will get you nowhere,

cause she's usually right.

read and UNDERSTAND, if you don't get the point we're trying to make, ask for clarification instead of taking things personally! No one's attacking YOU because you like to sit in front of your computer. We're just saying that IF you go learn new skills they will cross over and help in your DAW compositions.

I am primarily a violinist, but guitar, piano, flute, HELL, even didgeridoo, learning to coordinate my breathing... ALL OF IT HELPED. Musical knowledge is a structure where everything supports everything else.

So again, to you the reader, it is your duty to decide for yourself whose advice you choose to integrate into your beliefs. You choose your own path and the rate at which you learn and grow. The buddhists say there are multiple vehicles to enlightenment... this is true! we are all trying to get to the same place, but there are multiple vehicles, you can walk, bike, or take a fuckin F15...

If you learn more, you will be smarter and more skilled and progress more quickly. That is a fact. You don't have to learn arithmetic or basic science, or reading or writing to live and be happy in the world... but they sure as hell help.
Functional
KVRist
 
150 posts since 26 Oct, 2011

Postby Functional; Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:35 am

I think there's just one thing that needs clarification

To me, it felt like jancivil was trying to make a statement that without knowing how to play an instrument, your chances of succeess with musical career through using DAW's will be very limited.

And very limited is the part that needs clarification.

Will the chances be unreasonably bad?
Just bad?
Or just, "well, they could get better with knowing how to play an instrument".


I don't think it's fair to state boldly that using DAW only without ever playing a real instrument will get you mostlikely nowhere, because there's no real evidence for such statement. Even artists that would have used only their DAW's, probably wouldn't admit it that easily, because it may cause some loss of respect among some people. But on the contrary, there's no real evidence either that it's a must for you to know how to play a real instrument,




People who were deaf, have made great music, so would lack of knowledge for playing at least one instrument, really limit you that much?


For many decades, there were no computers, nobody wouldn't even imagine one. So it's easier to say "this is the way it's always been", but since there is now, do we really know yet about computer producing so much? Things constantly shift, the way it was done in the past isn't necessarily a way for the future. More and more people will show up with the mindset "f*** the piano, I want to make music without knowing how to play one!" and try their best to do so.
shankfiddle
KVRist
 
112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011

Postby shankfiddle; Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:42 am

sigh, here we go again...

"but i don't wanna..."
shankfiddle
KVRist
 
112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011

Postby shankfiddle; Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:46 am

Functional wrote:Things constantly shift, the way it was done in the past isn't necessarily a way for the future. More and more people will show up with the mindset "f*** the piano, I want to make music without knowing how to play one!" and try their best to do so.


True but the more people believe that learning real instruments is irrelevant... When the trend is toward asses in chairs not having to worry about rhythmic precision, intonation, reflexes, theory, etc...

It's the whole music community that suffers.

Those of us who believe in the art are trying our very best to preserve the impetus for learning. Perhaps a cultural trend will suppress us... but until then I am going to teach and inspire as many children as possible to pick up an instrument and start learning to use their minds in new ways.
D.Josef
KVRist
 
103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012

Postby D.Josef; Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:37 pm

Functional wrote:For many decades, there were no computers, nobody wouldn't even imagine one. So it's easier to say "this is the way it's always been", but since there is now, do we really know yet about computer producing so much? Things constantly shift, the way it was done in the past isn't necessarily a way for the future. More and more people will show up with the mindset "f*** the piano, I want to make music without knowing how to play one!" and try their best to do so.


That's where MUSIC would be lost.

Music, primarily, is not something that comes from a speaker. It is something humans make. It was originally born from the rhythm of the human body, and the inherent rhythm of life and that of language.
(One of the most simple ways of creating rhythm for melody is to take a book - any book, say, Alice in Wonderland -, read a sentence, and play it on your instrument. I mean, PLAY the sentence, as in play the intonation, the rhythm of syllables, etc.)

Sure, for many people music IS something that comes from a speaker, but this is a highly suboptimal state of things, and I really don't think it would be any good when it becomes that for musicians as well.

Illustration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVPLIuBy9CY
Functional
KVRist
 
150 posts since 26 Oct, 2011

Postby Functional; Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:39 pm

Please remember, I'm not trying to say that it's in no way worth to learn an instrument. I'm pretty sure it will help you and won't argue with that. What I'm arguing here is that if you choose not to, it won't make you automatically bad.

And I'm not promoting a future that will forget the instruments. And I doubt that will ever happen. Piano has existed for ages now and is certainly going nowhere. Guitars? Drums? Same thing. Not to mention how many genres there are that prefer real instruments.


But, on the other hand, you never know. Generations come and go and changes along them. More and more people will try to produce music with the little they have and keyboard, guitar and such instruments are not items of every household.


When I came up with the idea of starting to create music, keyboard was my first purchase, but I know only so many people who can't get the money even for bad studio monitors or reasonably good for their price (KRK's, like mine) for household enviroinments.

With all these limitations, I'm pretty sure, that eventually we will get lots of people producing music without knowledge of any instrument. Be it because the budged, because they see a piano roll and decide that it's more than enough or because they just can't force themselves to play any instrument.

After all, humans are creatures who adopt to subpar conditions in one way or another.


So, on behalf of all these kind of people, I'm still sure that it's unfair to say that their music will mostlikely suck because they didn't get an instrument.
Loki Fuego
KVRian
 
648 posts since 30 Aug, 2011, from somewhere in universe

Postby Loki Fuego; Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:52 pm

D.Josef wrote:Music, primarily, is not something that comes from a speaker. It is something humans make. It was originally born from the rhythm of the human body, and the inherent rhythm of life and that of language.
(One of the most simple ways of creating rhythm for melody is to take a book - any book, say, Alice in Wonderland -, read a sentence, and play it on your instrument. I mean, PLAY the sentence, as in play the intonation, the rhythm of syllables, etc.)

Sure, for many people music IS something that comes from a speaker, but this is a highly suboptimal state of things, and I really don't think it would be any good when it becomes that for musicians as well.
Sorry, but the world have changed somewhere in the beginning of 20th century, when media recording became possible. Right now music is mostly something that comes from a speaker. With the development of synthesizers this became even more true. As synthesized sounds could be produced only via speakers.

This discussion goes nowhere. There will be more and more people who would say "f*** the piano" and would still have a success in music because they feel the music and they know how to program an arpeggio.

PS: Even with my attitude, I'm still learning playing how to play piano. Just for myself.
Wonder whether my advice worth a penny? Check my music at Soundcloud and decide for yourself.
re:vibe and Loki Fuego @ Soundcloud
D.Josef
KVRist
 
103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012

Postby D.Josef; Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:53 am

Well I know this topic has gone off on a tangent, but I feel this is a very interesting and important philosophical question to explore. And well, I guess it's still quite important, given that the topic started with a request for help in analyzing a rhythm that is literally a no-brainer.

Sure, there is the way of learning theory and doing it from ground up all the time, but a very big portion of music is "listen and copy". Unless one has the ability to create music in real time, analyzing music in real time (ie. through listening) is unthinkable.

So sure, if someone wants to produce without being able to play, go ahead, but know that you will not become a musician this way, even if you might be able to make decent music time to time.
But come on, I take you like music if you want to create more. Don't you want the hands-on exhilaration of creating music on the fly, in real time? To turn your heartbeat and breathing into a beat for others to hear?
You guys make it sound like as if learning to play would be some terrible chore! :D What sort of attitude is that?

And well, if there is problem with time or money, for a first, I think any instrument will do. It doesn't even have to be chromatic. Anyone can play a diatonic kalimba or blues harmonica with a feeling of rhythm and a little practice. And they don't cost as much as most chromatic instruments do. Or if you want to go chromatic without paying a fuckton, get a recorder or a melodica.
Loki Fuego
KVRian
 
648 posts since 30 Aug, 2011, from somewhere in universe

Postby Loki Fuego; Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:15 am

D.Josef wrote:And well, if there is problem with time or money, for a first, I think any instrument will do. It doesn't even have to be chromatic. Anyone can play a diatonic kalimba or blues harmonica with a feeling of rhythm and a little practice. And they don't cost as much as most chromatic instruments do.
Or you could just try knocking out the rhythm on your table. If you want to go chromatic, try singing the melody. The instrument might probably require a bit of tuning, but over the time it will get better. And here we go, no need for the instrument at all :P

PS: That's how I studied music.
Wonder whether my advice worth a penny? Check my music at Soundcloud and decide for yourself.
re:vibe and Loki Fuego @ Soundcloud
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