Sure...
I have these outrageous opinions, and Im so argumentative all the time...


You can go ahead and 'eschew known forms' and keep me muted with half the other erudite kvrians. I wont interrupt these high level meetings again.

so, I expected to get dinged some on my remarks about classical musicians.

there is a chasm between the performers of that music and the composers. ie., a dead composer is no problem. but the performers are protected by the Union now to the extent they can determine what a composer can record, of her own work in rehearsal or performance, in many cases.

this is too reductive really, but in general classical music likes the composer to be dead. You don't have to pay them, you don't have to hear their ideas about it, it's all good.

anyway, regarding 'loki fuego's remarks, I should stay to 'avant garde'...
Did you ever wonder why someone goes into a more 'avant garde' area? The regular fare becomes tiresome.
Some people are more adventurous, and really more curious, have an appetite that isn't satisfied by McChicken.

there is a great tension we see here, the 'dance' music (I like to dance. I don't find that stuff inspiring as far as making me move anything. Four on the floor is there for people with no natcheral rhythm. It's social club music, it's there for something other than listening. I know there is stuff that exceeds that some, but you know what I mean I think) people, and musician's music.

Don't kid me, when you react like that, 'clocklogic', you show one thing: you resent a musician. You resent feeling inferior, you're going to strike back if soneone gets uppity and speaks their true feelings on it. You're among the majority here, too. I got sick of pussyfooting around with it, though. Don't pretend you're a musician until you are one. Don't f**king kid people your abilities will out, over some things which are time-honored that show results, that you couldn't be arsed to do. You don't show those results, do you.

Kudos to loki for posting his stuff, no matter what. I would encourage you, personally, but dayum dude.

Try and pull your heads out your asses for a minute and get a better view of the world of music.

Shame on you for presenting two opposing loki fuegos then:
What is that, devil's advocate? cause you stuck with that line vigorously up to a point and changed your tune to have a comeback at me it seems like.

Will the real loki fuego please stand up.

Holy cow, what has this thread turned into?

Let's make it simple;

If it happens that you are succesful with music in one way or another and you also have studied theory in depth as well as learned to play instrument(s?)...

There's still no evidence that proves the reason for success. In the past, instruments were the only tools. No DAW's, just real instruments. That's how old folks usually like it nowadays, right? (Please note, I'm not calling anyone old here, but I'd like to assume that there are people in this thread, that have lived probably twice longer than me)

Now, I'm 19 years old.

So, going on forward with this, older people had no other ways really back in the days to learn to play music. Unlike these days. So, from psychological point of view, it's pretty clear that they would tell to most people about how important it is to learn instrument and theory.


But there's no scientific evidence of that. And out of all producers in existance, even if we count only commercially successful ones, I doubt highly that with these days technology, there's nobody among them who hasn't really played with a real instrument and/or studied musical theory.

Especially the latter, a friend of mine makes great music and just got a contract with a label. Not a single minute of music theory, but to my demise, he played his whole life with a piano and that's how it started.


And then, if someone decides to make a track to represent their skills, that's fine. But then again, how about if you'd make a track without any deep knowledge about musical theory, just played around your whole life with DAW's instead?

Well, that's unfortunately not possible. And thus, your track will hold very insignificant point to us, because all it does is demonstrate your current skills.

I will gladly study musical theory and learn to play a piano. But if someone chooses not to do so, why would people have to bash for his decision? Maybe he will think completely free and at some point, learn things that are heavily against musical theory, yet work well?

As I said, world changes constantly and I think too many people have a problem with accepting that new generations do stuff that older generations could never imagine.

Just like people who say, "nowadays music is soulless and boring", I find them funny. Because they can't relate and don't understand, does it make music bad? No. It doesn't. If it doesn't appeal to them, well, tough luck.


EDIT: To you specifically, jancivil, I think it's sad to spread seeds of something that you absorbed as a truth but have no proof of it being such.

If you'd say that real instrument helps you to make better music along with music theory, I'd agree.

But since you're arguing that it's impossible without theory and real instrument, I disagree. Heavily. Infact, it's already been proven that you can make great music without knowing theory at all.

If you're going to continue this argument, bring me evidence that it's true. Not just words of how you percieve something.

This reminds me of Socrates. He started to question things that were held as facts for decades and he got killed. And do you remember what he used to say?

I usually doesn't judge other people work, as tastes differ, but I'll make an exemption in this case. If you intended to make some kind of electronic track, then it's a miserable fail. It reminds me of Russian word samoigrayka (the name used for things like Yamaha PSS).
I wouldn't never post anything like this myself.

I can't imagine why but this thread reminds me of an old Simpsons scene:

Lisa: "Look Mom, I've finished my patch.
It depicts the two greatest musical influences in my life.
[cough cough]
On the left is Mr. Largo, my music teacher at school?
He taught me that even the noblest concerto can be drained of
its beauty and soul.
And on the right is Bleeding Gums Murphy.
He taught me that music is a fire in your belly that comes out
of your mouth, so you better stick an instrument in front of it."



"They're right, hemlock does have a bitter afterta...."
Last edited by Gamma-UT on Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total

On a serious note, music theory is, in general, a good time saver. It is unfortunately hopelessly misnamed as, if you examine it closely, there's precious little actual theorising, more a collection of rules that are helpful in writing the kinds of music the 'theory' was constructed for. Those rules help save you from stumbling around and heading up blind alleys with musical ideas that (probably) won't work in most cases.

But the rules change based on context: the 'rules' of blues and jazz aren't regarded as being as academically important but they are important to those forms. Common-practice classical isn't really much of a help in those contexts. Although I think it's interesting to compare them and work out why certain rules will and won't work (and to see if you can incorporate one idea from another form and make it fit).

If all one gets out of learning these rules and techniques is the urge to tell people "look what mad skillz I've got", you might as well have learned the art of plate spinning.

Thats exactly how I think. Its a good idea to study theory for the sake of less trial and error. Id continue, but short of time and on my phone.

Let me explain you:
Both track posted earlier feature a piano sound. It doesn't meant to sound realistically, rather I just liked that timbre for these particular tracks. However, while programming the chords I spread each chord notes a bit, so that they won't hit at the same time. I manually programmed velocity for each note, then added small amount of velocity randomization.
These are the simple trick which allows you to make a certain part more interesting to listen to. I learned it a long time ago, before I played anything.
And as I already mentioned, I programmed those chords. When programming chords, I didn't bother myself with the theory, I was simply moving notes around until I got something I like. You don't need music theory for that, as this is the approach I've been using for last 15 years.
Studying music theory gave me ability to quickly create a generic chord progression. But it didn't make it easier for me to create a chord progression or a melody that I would like. I'm still using the same approach as before. If I would want to create some generic stuff or, for example, copy someone else, then definitely music theory would enormously help me in that. But I'm not interested in that.

And I don't really see a connection between playing an instrument and making better music. There's a lot of people who play the instruments and still make mediocre music.

To keep the argument short, I posted a couple of tracks in this thread. And I say that in the context of EDM music theory and playing an instrument won't contribute directly to the quality of the music. Now, if someone wants to know whether he should rely on my opinion, he could just listen to my tracks and decide for himself. It's that simple.


If you are into avant garde that's okay. People have different tastes. But it doesn't mean that you're more educated or whatever in any way. It just means that you have a different taste.

you are a gigantic waste of time dude. You're just dense, obstinate, entirely up your own ass here.

You seem completely unteachable. You're liable to make music exactly the quality you do now forever with the attitude you have. And it isn't really very good.

No, there is. You're just totally ignorant of the evidence.I'm old, then. I'm three times your age. When I was your age I was humble. I was preparing myself for an experience where I would encounter masters and I knew I wasn't shit. You're clearly, flagrantly not. It is little surprise to me you're a teenager. your arrogance is amazing to me. You don't know shit, son.So you feel you're learning music with WHAT TOOLS?! You have this idiotic pseudo-scientific posturing here; what tools, what 'science' are you using, since you want to claim you just don't need the old people ways? What 'evidence'. You have opinions, an attitude (of refusal, a negating thrust only. What a great sucking sound we hear coming from you.), out of which you proceed into pure argumentum ad culum.

the rest of your post is, again, PURE SOPHISTRY. Utter nonsense with a surfeit of verbosity as if to disguise it. I don't know if I've ever seen such pretentious, pointless garbage in all my days.

No worries, child, I will never sully the purity of your vision with information or help. Do the people that are trying to provide information, share KNOWLEDGE here a solid and stick to Production Techniques board. You have no business here, you're simply trolling and wasting server space. You have "boring rhythm melodies" because you don't know shit. You won't know shit until you quit thinking you know better. That whole post is just a fantastically elaborate dodge. Why did you bother canvassing here, since modern people don't need 'theory' or the benefits of any MUSICIAN'S knowledge? The people you want to hear from are at Production Techniques, other people that are interested in childish pretending on the same level as you.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

Well this post is for anyone who doesnt have me muted I guess.
Maybe some of you are willing to interpret the musings of a plebe.

Gee, when you put it like that, I wonder why?

So what is "musicians music" anyway....?

Oh! That stuff.
No, I dont know what you mean because that is just silly. You are discounting multiple genres, sighting a lack of inspiration to dance.
And you expound on that, going on to offend even the people who simply enjoy it.

Do you really think you can deem people musicians or not? With your advanced 'eschewed forms'?
Worse yet, you think you can judge the people who enjoy music? Fukk off.
All you experience and education has left you seriously lacking.

You say I am excluding people and then follow it with the above. ???
Do you read your posts?
At least half of them enforce an 'us v. them' in some way.


Oh, some shit is showing alright.
I think you resent not being appreciated.
I think it really pisses you off that some modern music does not require your skills, and that makes you be a jerk, and not dance.

Oh youre just a dick.
I would ask you to compare shankfiddles second posted track to Lokis, as an electronica piece, but with what you have to say about 'four on the floor' you opinion is obviously willfully biased.
And, thats not mentioning that you are often confrontational and dismissive, at the same time. In this thread alone you called the OP daft, called someones post 'Bullshit', and called someone else a child, from memory. Any of them calling you for lessons?

An honest or at least helpful opinion might actually further discussions like these by maybe showing the 'kids' what 'people like you' could possibly appreciate as far as our melodic hackery. Then, maybe we could tell you guys what we think sounds good in your attempts at techno, and vice versa. Instead theres a bit of 'tension here' because some of us think they are better than the rest, and that its a fight.

Tbh, I think shankfiddle was on the right track with his second posted track, even though it was a bit much and not exactly a top ten electronica piece. He banged it around, explained what he did, and although it came off to me a bit like a dare, he seemed to invite questions.
Where he at?
Im not muted already I hope.

edit:


How he did not soak up any of the wisdom is a mystery.
Last edited by highkoo on Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

You can't interrogate that which you have zero understanding of.

You're not even at a rudimentary level. Anyone with a real desire to learn supplied with an average fifth-grade band class will have more on the ball than you.

I get the feeling you want some attention from me, 'highkoo'. Isn't going to happen, but knock yourself out.

Had they invented computers or plugins then?


Nah, I thought you had me muted.
That was for everyone else.
Go ahead and get flattered or whatever though...