Rendering before Mastering

[supracg]

I have a quick mastering question:

Do you guys usually render/bounce out your whole song (24 bit wav) with the mastering plugs off, then master the new audio track created? Then if your using a final limiter with dithering and 16 bit settings, I'm guessing you would just set your DAW's dithering option to off and set it to bounce the track (now with the master plugs enabled) as a 16 bit wav.

I'm guessing 16 bit is generally whats used for soundcloud etc so thats why it should be dithered down to that.

[Gonga]

This is a good question and I too am curious what the responses will be. I've done it both ways, but I usually master to 24-bit. I think SC can handle anything, but I usually upload 320 mbps mp3.

[ford442]

the best option is to bring every track into a wav - then you can cut your tracks into different channels for final effects on each segment of each track..

[mholloway]

Yes, I render the whole thing, then drop the mixdown into a new session in a single audio track, and add the mastering plugins to the master channel.

One big advantage is simply CPU -- if I dropped my mastering chain into a full session with all the individual channels, instruments, and FX, it would be an absolute CPU killer.

But I also find that it creates a clear shift in where you are at in the production process: e.g. done tweaking the mix, reading to focus solely on the mastering of the completed track. It's also useful to simply see the mixed down, pre-mastered waveform, how much headroom it has, etc.


-M

[supracg]

Great thanks guys, so what it sounds like is it doesn't necessarily matter if you render before or after but it can help in CPU usage etc. if rendered first.

So what I'd like to know is why is 16 bit the standard then. I think I've heard thats generally the bit depth thats sent to labels for the professional mastering etc. but why dither if you dont need to yet. I think Soundcloud supports either bit depth. Or does converting to 16 bit really save a lot of memory? I know mp3 does

[BertKoor]

So what I'd like to know is why is 16 bit the standard then.

Well, it is not. The export used for the mastering still needs to have all details present, so make it 24 or 32 bits and don't use another format or dither until you've reached the final product that ends up on the published CD.

[Tarekith]

Short answer is that yes if you are using the dither in the limiter plug in then you want to turn off the DAW dither. Some people will render the mixdown and then take that into a new session to master it, other people will put their "mastering" plug ins on the master channel of their main DAW session and just do it there. Really no difference, it more or less comes down to with workflow you like, and how much CPU your computer has.

16bit is the standard format for masters because of CDs, they can only be 16 bit. In general if you're sending your track to someone to master though, you want to send them a 24 or 32bit file.


Maybe this will clear up some of your questions too:

http://tarekith.com/assets/pdfs/Mastering.pdf

[Compyfox]

I don't like built in dithers in limiters, I grew fond of Wavelab's APOGEE Dither tool for years, no need to change what worked for decades.


In short:
I don't use any mastering type plugins while mixing. On my master bus is at most a gain plugin that routes into a console type plugin, and post fader is a VU/RMS meter just in case while the final slot is taken by IKM ARC.

I work in 48kHz/24bit most of the time, while rendering I sometimes chose 32bit float though I don't see a need for it if I never reach -3dB.

The next steps while mastering on my end is involving a bitrate changer and maybe even a samplerate converter. Depending on the wanted final format. Either way the bitrate will be bumped to 32bit for Wavelab (yes, I literally fill the file with zeroes - reason: I can overshot without clipping within the DAW or if the files was rendered accidentally). If I'm going for CD/most MP3 presentation stuff I convert my 48kHz mixes down to 44kHz.

The next step is the actual mastering: final EQ touches, maybe a broadband compression (if needed), loudness raise with a proper limiter or gain->limiter array, some M/S magic (if needed), then fire up my dithering tool and render down to 16bit (CD, certain DVD streams) or 24bit (mp3/AAC).


This is how I've always done it.

[highkoo]

Technically there shouldnt be any difference between putting a chain on the master in the DAW and exporting to 16bit, and exporting at 24/32 and processing and dithering in an outside editor. (except precious end-of-project cpu cycles from that master channel.... )
But I fairly set in my superstition now.

I export from FL with nothing on the master at 32bit float and load into SoundForge to at least hit Pro-L for loudness and dither. Usually I play around with something else in that chain too though.

I upload .flac to SoundCloud. Why not?

[VibraSound]

I don't pre-render, I Master direct in FL Studio.

No dither for me.

Final wav is 16 bit.

[osiris]

I do too, but this makes sense on the saving CPU side. I even think this is the way FL suggests to do it in the manual. The best thing though is to check the mix WITH all the mastering plugins on before render. I've done tracks, had them right with -3 db headroom, and then when the mastering fx are put on find the need to adjust things in the mix. The high hats can be too loud. The lead can be too loud, etc. There's so many things mastering can do to alter sound, I just think you should have a basic master fx setup saved somewhere (I love that in FL you can save Mixer State and it will bring up your chain of plugins exactly as you've set them). and at least run it through to see how it sounds.

[Bronto Scorpio]

I always render my tracks before I "master" them. Usually as 32bit wav. Why? I just got used to it.

I then export the mastered track as 320kbps MP3 and upload it to Soundcloud or whatever. You can also upload wavs to Soundcloud and it will do the conversion for you but I always enable downloads on my tracks and MP3s are much more comfortable for that.
I'd of course render as (dithered) 16bit wav if the target medium would be a CD.

Cheers
Dennis

[tehlord]

It's sometimes useful to be able to see a tracks waveform so you can compress or limit in stages. If there are one or two big stray peaks in a track it's easier to see on a waveform. You can them 'surgically' limit them away before you do any further mastering so that any subsequent compressors or limiters aren't triggered by them.

[risome]

I dont export.I record down to a stereo file on another audio channel in my project, save all and then go to my project folder and find my stereo 48kHz/24bit file.No plugins on the master.Then i open Wave Editor and master in that.

[highkoo]

The best thing though is to check the mix WITH all the mastering plugins on before render. I've done tracks, had them right with -3 db headroom, and then when the mastering fx are put on find the need to adjust things in the mix. The high hats can be too loud. The lead can be too loud, etc. There's so many things mastering can do to alter sound

Yeah that is a good point.
I used to do a lot of stuff to compensate for that. Like exporting with hats a db lower than they should be, or getting too harsh with the post EQs. Or, doing lots of re-rendering.
Thinking about that though, I think those annoyances of doing a post-export process probably have actually helped me in getting cleaner mixes too.
So Im sure everyone knows the feeling- It feels 'done' when it is exported. Onward with it. That is natural I think. Because of that feeling now I just mix until I am happy with it, and once I kick out the full 32bit wav it is done and it takes a big mistake for me to re-render it.
That generally makese me really happy with a mix before the export and ideally I dont want too much from "mastering", other than for it to not butcher the mix. I mostly want transparency, followed closely by loudness. I dont think it makes me better at the post work really, but it does make me careful and light with it, which is prolly good cuz I dont really know what I am doing.