Waves NLS Non-Linear Summer released

[mystran]

I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...

Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.

I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.

[jam92189]

i want this to be good it sounds cool but almost like it doesn't really do what they claim

[MickGael]

The EMI mode is just beautiful.

[Sequent]

I was looking at the videos at the Waves site and the EMI console looks really interesting. I have seen pictures of it before but not as in depth. It looks like something that might have come from the Nautilus!

(Nautilus as in Captain Nemo.)

[Compyfox]

Look on Google or something for data regarding the TG12345. It was mainly used in the 70ies "Beatles" era as ultimate evolution of their REDD.51 console. It had more channels, better EQ, etc.

A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.

[Sequent]

I forgot about Record. Thanks for pointing that out. Thanks also for your thoughts on Mixbus.

I'll have to check SKnote... the price is certainly much better than NLS.

I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.

Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.

You forgot "Record" by Propellerheads who also claim to have used an SSL design/emulation. Then again, Mixbus is not a real console port either. Not only does it come with a buggy (still open source!) host, but basically it does nothing else than the used to combo, just sans the additionally needed insert slot.

The only system that does channel interaction on overload is SKnote's STRIPbus.

[jam92189]

okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
[edit]
also stripbus is affected by how much headroom you are using up on the channels does this plugin do that. At first i wanted to try out the waves version but reading more and more into it it seems to be more hype.

[Sequent]

I'll look into the "Beatles" book. I'm not interested in the console exactly... I was just mentioning that I thought it looked cool. Yet at the same time, it IS interesting and inspiring (and educational) to read about how things were produced, etc.

Cheers!

Look on Google or something for data regarding the TG12345. It was mainly used in the 70ies "Beatles" era as ultimate evolution of their REDD.51 console. It had more channels, better EQ, etc.

A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.

[Sequent]

This is sounding more interesting by the minute.

okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.

[Compyfox]

okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.

Still not quite true. "Summing" is taking several channels and "mix them down" into a stereo bus/group (to summarize). It's like mathematics only that several channels are "summed down" to two or 5.1 (surround).


It is true that STRIPbus does channel interaction on overload, and it offers ducking remote channels as well. But it is not a plugin set that does "true and only real summing". Again, take a look at (DIY) summing cables and what they do - the most simplest form of summing.


One thing that still doesn't swing with me with NLS is the "individual channel modeling" and "no channel sounds the same". I'd shred my console apart if these channels behave like that. Such nonsense started the myths on certain consoles that "channel X sounds better than channel Y, so I always put the vocals there". Slight changes (drift), fine. But if it's noticable, it's definitely a no go and it needs to be fixed.

[MickGael]

A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.

That book is a towering accomplishment. I'd been waiting for a book like that for more than 30 years.

[jam92189]

okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.

Still not quite true. "Summing" is taking several channels and "mix them down" into a stereo bus/group (to summarize). It's like mathematics only that several channels are "summed down" to two or 5.1 (surround).


It is true that STRIPbus does channel interaction on overload, and it offers ducking remote channels as well. But it is not a plugin set that does "true and only real summing". Again, take a look at (DIY) summing cables and what they do - the most simplest form of summing.


One thing that still doesn't swing with me with NLS is the "individual channel modeling" and "no channel sounds the same". I'd shred my console apart if these channels behave like that. Such nonsense started the myths on certain consoles that "channel X sounds better than channel Y, so I always put the vocals there". Slight changes (drift), fine. But if it's noticable, it's definitely a no go and it needs to be fixed.

that is a good point the bus compressor that comes with it works fairly well though. But i see what you mean. It would be a cool addition if they could be routed directly to a bus channel and sum everything up there as well.
and as for separate channel modulation. i do agree there that no one has done that yet. but it seems like it would take forever for them to do it and right.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...

Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.

I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.

I agree it's feasible, just wonder why Slate or Waves or UA haven't taken it on. I wasn't sure plugins could feed audio directly to other plugins until I saw the sampler plugin for Geist. You put the Spitter effect on a track, and it takes the audio and spits it into Geist. A summing/console channel plugin could theoretically do the same thing. If one were really clever, you could probably get crosstalk from adjacent channels using something similar to grouping. You could tell the plugin, "this is channel 1" then "this is channel 2, etc" and it could feed the adjacent channels back into each other. It would probably require massive amounts of I/O and CPU power though, and I'm not convinced the results would be all that great.

[jam92189]

I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...

Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.

I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.

I agree it's feasible, just wonder why Slate or Waves or UA haven't taken it on. I wasn't sure plugins could feed audio directly to other plugins until I saw the sampler plugin for Geist. You put the Spitter effect on a track, and it takes the audio and spits it into Geist. A summing/console channel plugin could theoretically do the same thing. If one were really clever, you could probably get crosstalk from adjacent channels using something similar to grouping. You could tell the plugin, "this is channel 1" then "this is channel 2, etc" and it could feed the adjacent channels back into each other. It would probably require massive amounts of I/O and CPU power though, and I'm not convinced the results would be all that great.

I am sure it can be done but just seems way to power hungry

[Compyfox]

I don't think that this is practical...

Here is why:
Let's take your usual consumer console, either a Mackie or a Behringer, maybe even Allan and Heith.

Most of these "cheap" devices do not work module based, but there are several channels soldered on to one board. Now if you overload a channel here, there is a huge chance you affect the others in the process. This is the nasty bleeding effect a lot of engineers try to evade.

A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.


Now... large scale consoles work module based. At least most of them. Meaning: each channel strip works individual and is connected to the full array (routed to the summing bus) in parallel through own means. Usually these channels are not connected unless you want them to. In theory we could talk about galvanic disconnection (which would be the best way possible), but in reality this doesn't happen (radiation, etc).

Here the channel differences make sense if you take a look at the whole module. A damaged resistor or a capacitor can mess with the whole channel. Or let's say the module wasn't properly installed, then you have additional noise and the liking. This is what Waves tried to pull off, and other firms/developers like Slate and AlexB (with modification of his own consoles) tried to evade. It can add some certain flavor, but I see it as damaged components that need to be fixed.


What you ask is a complete "console" built after. Which would mean you need a dedicated system. But we have that already! It's our host!

Our host is the most clean and most correct working tool that we have at our disposal. It is a tape machine and a console in one! You can't get any better than that.


The thing that we miss in this case however is the conversation from kinetic energy to electric energy and therefore bits and bytes. Stuff that let things sound alive. And here we talk about preamps and microphones. All with their dedicated frequency response, harmonic distortion (if the circuity demands it or does so on purpose) plus our more or less flat AD/DA's.

It is no weakspot whatsoever to just use a (simple) digital host like Cubase, Logic, Acid, FLStudio, Sonar, StudioONE, RECORD, Samplitude and how they are all called. If we want more flavour, we grasp for things that model analog devices such as certain EQ's, compressor, preamps, guitar amps, microphone modelers or in this case a console.


Really, in reality engineers around the globe tried to evade all he negative sideeffect of analog equipment. Now we scream for these tools again in digital form yet barely anyone realises what we have at our disposal already.

There were even A/B tests with passive summing modules (cables again), and the only "coloring" that happened here was due to the gain compensation of the preamp prior to the AD/DA again. That and the more finer resolution due to voltage rather than bits and bytes that literally no one can hear!

Forget the "blind tests" - there is no secret magic going on and a 20grand digital cable doesn't sound better than a properly built 20bucks DIY one.