Kemper vs Line6 "Dream Rig" (was: Which tube guitar pre?)

[zerocrossing]

After a lot of consideration it's occurred to me that I'm not going to be happy half-assing it with a pre-amp/amp-cab modeler situation. I know I chit-chat a lot about synths (I love them so) but I'm a guitar player g'damn it! It's always been my main love. The last few years I've spent a lot of time and money on some pretty choice bits of analog synth gear (I'm so in love with my Studio Electronics ATX-x QFS!) but not a dime on a guitar equivalent. THIS MUST STOP!

So my budget is $1500 to $2000. I'm no longer trying to get a new computer as my current one will serve me for another year or so. Here's what I'm considering and why. I'm trying to think though this because it's a lot of money and I want to make sure I get the best bang for the buck. My main requirements are great sound quality and it has to be silent or near silent so I can maintain a healthy relationship with my wife and neighbors.

Kemper Profiling Amp:

Pros:

Small.
Single box solution.
Sounds fantastic.
Digital (will make me feel like I'm in The Matrix)
Will let me profile weird stuff for crazy times.
Chance to profile amps of my past that are much missed.
Not limited to models chosen by the developer.
Cute (maybe I'm the only one that likes it's sci-fi hospital gear look, but I dig it. I'm the kid who spent hours trying to make his room the bridge of the Jupiter 2 from Lost In Space)

Cons:
Will never make an actual sound on it's own. (I know I said I wanted a silent solution, but there could come a time when having an actual amp could be good for jams)
New tech will lose value when Kemper II is released
Needs MIDI controller (I have an extra FCB1010) Will the CCs be smooth?
No actual tubes. (this is probably nostalgia for days of old...)

Line6 "Dream Rig" DT25+POD 500HD into a Randall ISO cab.

Pros:
Real tubes. The DT25 is in the neighborhood of a traditional tube amp.
Dedicated Controller. (The POD HD 500 will act as both a controller and give extra models and effects)
Will make a sound if needed.
Sounds fantastic.
Bogner name and real tube power stage will probably mean it'll retain it's resale value.
Looks great like a nice boutique amp.

Cons:
Big.
Multi-box solution. ISO cab will probably be awkward in my space. Could go in the garage. (not sure about that)
Will make some sound. My studio is next to our garage. I'm in CA so it never goes lower than 40 degrees Farenheight/5 Celsius. I guess I could drill a hole in the wall and keep the cab in the garage. Not sure if I want to deal with that rigamarole.
Users claim high learning curve with lots of chances to make it sound like crap.
Limited to amp models Line6 has chosen.
Limited to the Randall ISO Cab.

So that's more or less me think-typing. At the end of the typing I'm leaning toward the Kemper. Did I miss anything? Is there another solution as good?

[wasi]

Round and round we go, hehe

Engl. Four channels in the same way the H&K has two, fx loop if you want it. Unless you want a broad variety of sounds at a push of a button at which point you can do better than the second-hand jmp.

Not many outside the boutique market do high gain like Engl, and the cleans are typically fat and shimmering. Besides, added bonus of the Engl is nobody from IK can tell you their Engl sounds more real.

As I mentioned in the other thread, a speaker sim out is a nice accessory, but you'd hate being forced to use that despite your other solutions. You want either both or just a dry out. I thought the Tubemeister only had a speaker sim out (can't check right now). //edit : there's the fx send as well...

If you have an amp already, maybe also look around for a used palmer adig-lb (or something like that). They cost a fortune new and their speaker sim is inferior Imo to the fractionally priced redbox, but it has a load box plus a (post power amp) line out. The advantage is power amp saturation and you can play your actual amp. It's not nearly worth the money new though if you ask me.

[Uncle E]

Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 18

Because you can't get classic crunch without power tubes.

[lfm]

I was looking quite a while at this one:
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansamp/psa1_1.html

Not Tube per se, but has some qualities.

Occurs second hand now and then and is definately worth the price then.

[Hink]

I'm going to say it again ZC and I know you wont like it but as long as you dont mind the wait you cannot do better than the Frenzel pre I got last year

http://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/page17.php

Except just after I got mine they added a feature to add one more pre-amp tube for either a Marshall Hi-gain tone or a Hi-Watt...add the two watt power tube option and you have a great pre-amp that is also a great recording single ended amp. $385.00 for everything and then go to Antique Electronics and get the exact same cage Frenzel sells for $37.00 unpainted.

I know what you said about not wanting the Fender tone but I dont compare it to a Fender or a Marshall even though that's what the F and M stand for...want two channels? Well you dont get two separate tonestacks like you might with some amps but with an AB pedal you can switch between the two inputs which each have their own gain control...get an ABY and use both.

FWIW Shane Sanders offered to buy mine for what I paid for it if I didn't like it so check with him, you might end up having no risk. However it does meet your needs as you have written them and just so you know, that amp with the attenuator is great with the Jet City iso cab. (I certainly use more hi-gain sounds than anything else and with an OD in front of it it screams and mine does not have the third pre-amp tube*).

With that said I can understand that the wait might be what keeps you from getting one (and the fact that there is no returning it), because it will be two months. OTOH IMHO it's one of the best values out there and I have experience with plenty of pres (even the Carvin with it's boatload of 12ax7s) and I prefer the Frenzel over all of them.

It can even be used with other amps as a pedal too. Even if I bought a dozen new boutique amps I would still keep my little Frenzel around because there's always a use for it.

About the sansamp PSA-1...it is great but I think overpriced even used by today's standards.

Another choice would be the Rockblock, FWIW almost the exact price of the Frenzel without the wait

http://www.surprisesoundlab.com/ssl-24_003.htm

This is on my to get list as well

The ENGL, the Boogie, the Marshall JMP-1 are all very good (though I have never tried the ENGL and going on rep only), the Marshall 9000 pre-amp (the all tube one) I have has been good enough to get me by but went under my bed for years when I plugged into a Sansamp GT2 because the Sansamp blew it away imo.

*just my opinion but since about 1982 I have realized that for true hi-gain with just about any tube amp you want some boost in front of it, I prefer a boost or an OD with the distortion low and you want for gain no more. I built my Tubescreamer clone with the boutique mods and one of the mods was adding a switch so I can choose between the stock diodes (clippers) and LEDs or in the middle position I can "lift" those clippers making it only a boost and that's pretty much how I run it.

If you can solder and read an ohm meter you can build the same pedal for under 70 dollars.

Please do not be angry with me for my constantly bringing up Frenzel, I only do so because that little pre impressed me that much. The only thing I would want for is a presence but it does well without it...I will never part with my Frenzel Pre

[zerocrossing]

Round and round we go, hehe

Yeah, it's been a bit of a round trip, but this is more the final "course correction" to a process that's gone on for a while. A long time ago my wife and I were gearing up for a move. Our idea was to stuff ourselves into a one bedroom apt for a few years and save up to buy a home. It meant I was losing my studio and sharing a small home office space or corner of the living room for my stuff, so I went all computer. I'm glad I did though. I learned a lot and discovered some very cool instruments and effects that I wouldn't have otherwise known about.

So smash cut to now, I've got a smaller but decent sized room for my gear so I've one by one been putting in hardware pieces to augment the software. I like the hybrid approach. Oddly I focused mostly on synths when my main instrument has been guitar all along. That's partially a testament to how good amp sims are these days. Anyway, my final step is the guitar amp situation. I've already got a Lexicon MPX-1 for effects.

[zerocrossing]

I'm going to say it again ZC and I know you wont like it but as long as you dont mind the wait you cannot do better than the Frenzel pre I got last year

http://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/page17.php

Except just after I got mine they added a feature to add one more pre-amp tube for either a Marshall Hi-gain tone or a Hi-Watt...add the two watt power tube option and you have a great pre-amp that is also a great recording single ended amp. $385.00 for everything and then go to Antique Electronics and get the exact same cage Frenzel sells for $37.00 unpainted.

Here's my issue with the Frenzel. I can't find a single high gain demo of one.

That Rock Block looks interesting too, yet most of the demos are horrible. WTF? Maybe I could find one at a local shop and check it. The most interesting one I heard has it in front of S-Gear, so that's how it may be used... Might cover much of the same ground as my Blackstar HT-5 Dual pedal.

[zerocrossing]

Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 18

Because you can't get classic crunch without power tubes.

That's a good point but I'm torn because direct out from the Redbox demos I've heard sound a little muffled and dead. On the other hand, I can use it's effect send into TORPEDO PI-101, though it's unclear how well it's tube amp simulation goes and then of course I'm back to using software for at least part of the deal. A plus is that I'm that much closer to adding a $400 Randall iso cab and having the full real deal, though I'm torn as to if I want to go that route. Do I really care about "classic crunch?" I'm not sure...

Here's a demo that I quite like the sound of.

No power amp, just pre and cab impulse.

[wasi]

Here's a demo that I quite like the sound of.

No power amp, just pre and cab impulse.

You clearly need an Engl. - Seriously, not many amps are that articulate on the low end. That's essentially Engl's signature high gain sound. The JMP-1 is trying to strangle itself with its power chord right now.

The "round and round" remark by the way was more a reference to how I go round and round on these things myself. Every evening I reach a gear decision that gets thrown out by noon the next day... So please, no offense intended!

[Uncle E]

Another way to go about this might be to get a tube pedal that you can use in front of an amp when you're not using it DI. The Soldano GTO, for example, does amazing medium to high gain tones when feeding a good clean amp and would probably sound nice through cabinet impulses.

That said, if you can muster up a little extra cash, the Kemper is really the way to go:

[Uncle E]

You clearly need an Engl. - Seriously, not many amps are that articulate on the low end. That's essentially Engl's signature high gain sound. The JMP-1 is trying to strangle itself with its power chord right now.

The "round and round" remark by the way was more a reference to how I go round and round on these things myself. Every evening I reach a gear decision that gets thrown out by noon the next day... So please, no offense intended!

That's not bad! Used Engl's are surprisingly cheap, too.

[Uncle E]

That's a good point but I'm torn because direct out from the Redbox demos I've heard sound a little muffled and dead.

Use the line out in that case. The Red Box specifically filters out top-end and it sounds like it filters out more than you like.

On the other hand, I can use it's effect send into TORPEDO PI-101

There are no power tubes in the signal in that scenario.

[Hink]

I'm going to say it again ZC and I know you wont like it but as long as you dont mind the wait you cannot do better than the Frenzel pre I got last year

http://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/page17.php

Except just after I got mine they added a feature to add one more pre-amp tube for either a Marshall Hi-gain tone or a Hi-Watt...add the two watt power tube option and you have a great pre-amp that is also a great recording single ended amp. $385.00 for everything and then go to Antique Electronics and get the exact same cage Frenzel sells for $37.00 unpainted.

Here's my issue with the Frenzel. I can't find a single high gain demo of one.

That Rock Block looks interesting too, yet most of the demos are horrible. WTF? Maybe I could find one at a local shop and check it. The most interesting one I heard has it in front of S-Gear, so that's how it may be used... Might cover much of the same ground as my Blackstar HT-5 Dual pedal.

record something with AT DONT send me the hi-gain version just record a dry signal too and I'll send it through my re-amper, into my digitech screamin blues>Frenzel (I suggest that because it's fairly generic) and let's see how close I come to what you want. I'll send you back the what is recorded out of the line out with nothing else so you can try it with anything (AT cabs, IRs, power amp etc).

Bottom line, I dont want anyone to go just on my word on something like this because all our tastes are different. I also miss music retail sometimes, I was the type of salesman that enjoyed it when someone walked away with exactly what they were looking for (to this day every so often I'll bump into someone who says "you sold me my first guitar" and that's a great feeling). Also if you just feel Frenzel is not for you at all I wont mention it again, no offense taken nor any offense intended but no matter what that door stays open.

As for the Rock Block talk to Andrew, he loves his and I'm sure he has some good samples to hear...there's a lot to choose from so take your time and choose what works best for you and you'll be all set...but that is really preaching to the choir because you already know that

[Hink]

The "round and round" remark by the way was more a reference to how I go round and round on these things myself. Every evening I reach a gear decision that gets thrown out by noon the next day...

boy do I know that feeling all too well

Wife: How many amps do you need?
Me: One
Wife: Then why do you have 5?
Me: Because I haven't found that one yet
Wife: So are you going to sell the others?
Me: Of course not, I need all those
Wife: But you said you only needed one
Me: Yes and I need each and every one of those
Wife: So you are done buying amps?
Me: No I need one more...btw how many more tattoos are you going to get?
Wife: What would you like me to take out for dinner?

actually the truth is my wife is an angel and would never tell me what to buy or not and vice versa, in 15 years we have never had a fight over money because I wont let money do that to us...she does have more tats than I do amps though

[zerocrossing]

[The JMP-1 is trying to strangle itself with its power chord right now.

Now that's my type of humor! Bonus!

The "round and round" remark by the way was more a reference to how I go round and round on these things myself. Every evening I reach a gear decision that gets thrown out by noon the next day... So please, no offense intended!

Oh? Well then I will post this in response.





Yeah, trust me, I've "made a final decision" on this a few times already.