Who uses Cantabile live (and no synth hardware)

[Triton76]

Hi Sean,
thanks a lot for your report. Allow me to digest what I've noticed

Trust in pc solutions:
Seems to be still lower than in HW. I can't remember having read from someone having a PC solution to back up it's HW keyboard stuff...

Hello,
I just joined this forum today because this is by far the best discussion and forum I've found regarding live performance with VSTs. Hope someone is still on the thread!

I have an enormous HW gigging setup and really considering going to a SW setup.
- Korg Triton Studio 76
- Kurzweil PC88 (weighs a ton!)
- Roland XP-80
- Mixer in an SKB case
- Voce V5 organ module
- Vintage Leslie, model 145 (Voce MIDI'd to Triton)
- Keys and the mic'd Leslie all go thru bands PA system

I love it, but lugging all this around is killing me man! However, I must say that my real motivation is that I find myself emulating rhythm guitar on about a third of my band's songs using some barely acceptable patches I've created on my Triton Studio and a Hans Zimmer sample CD I bought a few years ago. I've got my eye on RealLPC by MusicLab.

So the bottom line is, at least initially, I'd like to have a set up that I can use the Triton Studio as the only keyboard, and go back and forth between the Triton hardware patches and a guitar VST...and even use them simultaneously on a split keyboard. I've got a new i7 laptop running Windows 7, with a 750GB HD and 8GB RAM, and a MOTU Audio Express 6x6.

I'm new to this software stuff...is this just wishful thinking or something I could realistically do? From what I've read, it seems like Cantabile would be fully capable of doing this. Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Steve in Chandler, AZ

P.S. Down the road, Omnisphere is on my bucket list. Gotta have it!

[TiUser]

I think you should not try to replace all the wanted components instantly by software.

While in a studio situation a crash or audio hickups are just lost time nobody wants this to happen on stage.

Most HW has quite reliable and known behavior while SW solutions involve many individual components you deal not separately with in the same manifold when using HW.

In other words - go slowly, start with a simple software setup to experience what is possible and what expectation may be difficult to realize.

Maybe download Cantabile Lite first, get some free plugins and play around with it. Then decide how to go on.

[seanmorse79]

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I'm not familiar with the guitar VST you're looking at, but it looks pretty interesting. There's no question that a live VST rig would work if you've got a decent laptop and interface. In one of the bands I play in, I do double-duty keyboards and guitar. I recently started leaving the Egnater Renegade at home and running everything through Cantabile - keys via MIDI controller, and a Les Paul plugged into the instrument input, using a virtual guitar amp VST. Here are a few things to consider...

- You're going to miss the Leslie on stage. I own one too, (it's a ProLine 330 ..not as cool as your 145) but there's no way in hell I'm dragging that beast to gigs in my Malibu. That said, the Hammond VSTi I'm using sounds much better than any hardware emulation I've ever used.

- Like Tiuser said, hardware IS more reliable. Laptops can be finicky, especially if they're being used for other things. The question is, is your laptop reliable enough to perform consistently. In my case, definitely yes. The key is to treat the laptop like a piece of audio equipment and not like a bang-around laptop. Keep it tuned up, turn automatic updates off, turn screen savers off, don't install shady apps or surf shady sites, test your setup thoroughly before gigging with it, and backup your Cantabile files whenever you make changes. Your I7 w/ MOTU should be rock-solid as long as you're careful with it.

- Flipping back and forth between hardware & VST will work just fine. I'd recommend using the MOTU's audio inputs so you can leave Cantabile in control and leave the mixer at home.

- You're going to need something to put your laptop on that's comfortable. The DJ-style laptop stands are worthless, and you're not going to want it on the floor. You're probably using a 2-tier stand, so you could prop a piece of wood across the top tier, use a good music stand, a TV tray, or build a stand for it like I did: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10985855/IMAG0518.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10985855/IMAG0518.jpg) I've since replaced the interface's "duct tape mount" with velcro

Gigs are probably going to feel a bit awkward until you get used to it, just like any new piece of hardware that's primary to your rig. I've played about 20 gigs this way now, and I really don't see myself going back to using hardware. The sound is fantastic, the setup is simplified, and I can cart my whole rig in a single trip from the car.

[TiUser]

Just a word on "reliability" - I didn't mean the electronics of "dedicated HW music gear" is more longevitable than PC HW... that's not the case, indeed both can fail. What I meant is the reliabilty to fulfill it's musical purpose.

One thing is "latency". This is rarely discussed with (todays) dedicated music HW but a usual topic in a windows software based setups. If you configure small audio buffers - which is welcome for live playing - you can easily outperform any windows based pc. There are additinal things that can sum up, like midi latencies and it can be difficult to identify all the evils involved. Just having an i7 based machine does not mean much. Depending on use a fast HD or SSD for samples and a audio interface with very good drivers can be worth more... Ever considered that the graphics card drivers influence audio performance?... indeed they do! It's about what I already said - you have to deal with more components (HW and SW) you will not think about with dedicated music HW.

There are other things to learn how and where to compromise. In a windows based music environment there is no grant for any count of polyphony. If you demand too much there is no control cutting off voices but you get audio pops and crackles. Live is much different to recording studio needs and probably more critical.

These are some of the points why I recommend to get familiar with software based music environment before planing to replace many HW instruments - especially if you are a professional who needs to rely on proper function.

All systems have strengths and weaknesses and before you have some feel for what is possible and what not I hesitate to share enthusiasm for one or another solution.

To get this more visual: When you buy a Moog and never dealt with such synths you may wonder later why you can just play one note at a time... With SW it's a bit alike.

Having said that all - of course it's time to check out Cantabile Lite now.

http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/lite/

[Triton76]

Wow! Thanks so much for the detailed replies. What a great forum this is. Couple of points from what I read in your messages. I definitely want to keep gigging with the Leslie...that thing adds so much warmth to the overall band sound that I don't think the other guys would let me drop it - even if I wanted to! Love that thing. Perhaps I could try some VST organs instead of the Voce since I mostly use presets rather dynamically changing the drawbars.

Also, it's clear from everything you've said that a PC dedicated specifically for this is required, and I don't have that as yet. This one is also being used by the rest of the family for email, surfing, microsoft office, etc. I need to go buy a cheap laptop for them and treat the i7 as a part of the music equipment setup only.

And finally, great suggestions to just wade into this whole thing with lite versions until I understand all the nuances. Geez, it took me two days just to get any sounds out of my audio interface! I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and need to get some basic concepts down before attempting a live performance setup. Will just have some fun with studio projects for a while and re-record some of the tunes I've put together on my hardware sequencers. And play with Cantabile Lite as well.

Tough to think about ever giving up the Korg Triton Studio. Despite not being 100% happy with the sound capabilities, the user interface is fantastic IMHO. Simple sequencing, sampling, breaking the keyboard up into ranges, and easy access during gigs to individual songs I've set up. But all those VSTs I've heard...Ivory, Omnisphere, RealLPC, etc have got me drooling and could open up a whole new world of creativity.

You guys were great. I'll file these responses away and revisit in a few weeks or months. See ya on forum as I work my way thru the process.
Thanks!
Steve

[TiUser]

You're welcome...

For first experiments it isn't a bad idea to try a non optimized PC... This is the best way to learn about critical points. It's not true that you absolutely need an optimized PC to get started - it's just not what you need when it comes to maximize reliability and stability.

You can get started even without a special audio interface. Get free"Asio4All" driver software which provides low latency asio audio for most built in soundcards.

If you want to route and analyze midi flow there is free "MidiOx" software to do this job.

Feel free to ask anything you might wonder. When starting it needs time to gather information and this can be shortened by asking here...

[Spaced100]

Hi everyone...i am new to this forum and i love it...

Read most of this thread concerning the "play live with VSTs". Like for some others here it was the money which let me chose to join the PC club (and i love PCs anyway...).

@Triton: Like TiUser says. The most important thing is a fast audiocard so ur latency is low. Otherwise playing just doesnt make sense and fun.

I play with an intel icore3 laptop (win7 x64 4GB RAM) with an external m-audio fast track pro usb soundcard where i attach my midi of the first keyboard. The second comes via usb to the PC.

Make sure ur PC is "clean" - switch ur system setting so ur PC always has enough resources (i am german so i dont know how to call all the settings). I changed my graphics settings as well so i dont use much resources there. Before using Cantabile 2 i played live with Cubase (yes it is possible but really complicated with the setup). Cubase just uses to much resources because all VSTs are "on" all the time - no proper bypassing works. So for all ur songs u open all ur vsts....basically a nightmare. But it worked for over 2 years in several life sessions. Cantabile offers just the easiest way to create ur setup. I had problem with the 64bit version and the jbridge so i went to the Cantabile 2 32 and that seems to be stable. I gonna play my biggest life concert soon...so it better be stable...lol...all the best.

Tomkey

[TiUser]

it was the money which let me chose to join the PC club (and i love PCs anyway...).

I've heard that many times but I admit it's hard for me to believe that. A dedicated PC, a good keyboard, a quality audio interface with top notch drivers and legal software can cost a lot too - not to mention the potential problems you don't face with one of the main HW workstation makers.

I don't really think price is the #1 point to choose a software solution.

[Triton76]

I've got a buddy who has an incredible home studio with 10s of thousands of dollars in software...Cantabile, Omnisphere, Ivory, Cubase, and a whole closet full of other stuff. I was lucky enough to get the grand tour the other night. A whole room full of keyboards, all accessible from his single controller, 4 hi-end studio monitors + a sub, and two big monitor screens. Its a keyboard player's dream, believe me. He recorded an amazing 5 track demonstration song for me in about 10 minutes using Cubase. Wow! His only experience in playing live VSTs was also thru Cubase, which he confirmed was a bit challenging due to the load transition time between songs and other complications. He's never used his Cantabile, which I guess came free with Ivory?
He's a very positive kind of guy, but every time I talk to him about moving to live VSTs, he makes comments like "you're very brave", and "that's a courageous decision". Not sure how to take that!!!....
I've got all the hardware now, and just making software decisions. Probably looking at about $900 for Cantabile plus the VSTs I want.

And I'm still very nervous about taking the leap, but I figure if it doesn't work out, I'm only out $140 for Cantabile - the VSTs will all be useful in the home studio anyway.

[TiUser]

Well, see what your friend does... He uses both, software and dedicated HW. That's IMHO what you always end up when you have high demands.

There is some truth in rating a PC SW based setup to be targeted to a brave user in a live situation.

I've pointed to the reason many times. Windows does no guarantee any amount of cpu time at specified time slices. Read it twice, it's not about enough cpu time, it's about providing it when needed! For short, Windows is no Realtime OS. This is true regardless how fast your PC will ever become. Just a faster PC will reduce the risk to hit a critical level.

I've pointed to the different results of overloading SW and HW too... audio crackles versus voice stealing.

Concering "stability" in terms of crashes I wouldn't say a PC is less reliable than dedicated HW. There is probably still a technical difference, dedicated HW consumes often a lot less power than a PC based solution - less power means less thermal problems when it gets hot.

As I've said some posts before - PC solutions force you to think about more components and aspects you will not need to care about in the same depth with dedicated HW.

It looks like you're very enthusiastic about the idea going software. I don't tell you it can't work - but please try to evaluate the possibilites without a view distorted by your enthusiasm and facination for SW option. There are good reasons why both SW and HW still exist.

In other words: If you want to create a live organ in software - that should not be a big deal but if you want to replace a studio full of mixed gear in SW, well...

[Triton76]

Thanks TiUser and all. Really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I'll update my success and challenges as I move forward.
Steve

[Triton76]

Thanks TiUser and all. Really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I'll update my success and challenges as I move forward.
Steve

Well, I'm back with an update. I decided to take the advice of many of you here and start off slowly. I'm using 2 keyboards...one HW and one SW. I simply bought Ivory and using it with the Cantabile program that came with it on a piano dedicated keyboard. Then I'm using my Korg Triton Studio as a stand-alone hardware keyboard for synths, strings, organ, effects, etc. I'm running both of those plus the 2 mics from my Leslie thru a small MOTU Audio Express interface/mixer. The whole thing is very reliable because I always have my hardware piano sounds as a backup in case something goes wrong with the software. Also bought a REALLY cool Gator 2U case with a laptop section in the top and a Furman Power conditioner in one rack slot plus a tray holding the MOTU in the other rack slot.
Once I get my feet wet with this, I'll start adding additional VSTs and hopefully eventually convert.
Thanks for all the inputs folks. I'm happy with my direction at this point.
Steve in Chandler, AZ

[TiUser]

so here we are

[godly]

Great topic here !

I'm thinking of giving Cantabile also a try.
I was wrestling with Live Professor, wich seems nice but hase some bugs on my setup.
So I started checking other Live Hosts. Seems that I'm kinda lost now, haha .
http://bedroomproducersblog.com/free-vst-plugins/

Reason why I didn't try cantabile out yet, is because I don't see a clear graphical interface for the plugins, Live Professor, or other software gives a good overview. Pitty I don't have a Mac for MainStage. That seems sublime.

So my Questions:
Does Cantabile:
- show the plugin interface of the synth?
- can you reprogram shortcut keys for sessions or so, so I only have to type keypad 1,2,3 or so? or F keys?

[pinkcanaru]

Cantabile can show the interface of any loaded plug in.

Regarding softkeys for loading sessions - once you start working with cantabile you will realize very quickly that the most important container is the 'sub-session'
Assuming that you use a number VST plugins, what you want to acheive is the fastest transition between songs.
Cantabile can handle this task easily by allowing the subsessions to enable or disable the pertinent plugins and by ensuring that the correct data is within each plugin for each song.
Cantabile also use some smart thinking when it comes to loading data which is already present.

As for HOW you can recall sessions and
Subsessions there's a few approaches.
Via midi where you can call a specific session or subsession - or you can use key commands to call up previous or next
You can place subsessions from different sessions into a setlist and recall them via midi or by previous next commands.
You can nominate to leave certain plugins locked in memory and have others flush and load

There are a number of strategies to be used exclusively or in combination.

And FWIW I'm using cantabile to run a comprehensive selection of guitar setups - keyboards - and FX

You take care of a few basics and the system runs rings around hardware.
Disable wifi - virus protection - processor leeches which don't need to run when you are in mission critical situations.

It's not so difficult but it does require that one pays attention and uses reliable plugins.
There's no doubt that badly written plugins cause more crashes than this host ever will

Hope that helps some.