VS11 Express will only produce Metro apps

[rola]

- Make advanced controls like "close program" annoyingly difficult to reach

To close a program click top of screen and pull down

[Distorque]

Yes, but to any Windows user that's counter-intuitive. It's also not obvious from the interface, unlike the red x button. Instead of making things immediately available for you, they make you go to a unmarked area to find the control, then you have to use a gesture to use it. For a touch screen device that makes sense, but it seems lazy not to give mouse users a simpler, more obvious way of closing applications. And when all of the applications run fullscreen or splitscreen, you need to learn the location and method of using all of the controls that are just button clicks on Windows 7 (closing, changing windows, accessing menus, moving applications, etc.)

[Meffy]

I will not be smug about using Delphi and C++ Builder... I will not be-

Oops. *blush* Heh.

More seriously, any dev who's tired of playing footsie with MS development tools might want to look into Embarcadero's offerings. They're what Visual C++ ought to have been, except more and better by far. They're truly VISUAL like Visual Basic, but not language-lame like VB. Genuinely a pleasure to use.

[Xenakios]

I will not be smug about using Delphi and C++ Builder... I will not be-

Oops. *blush* Heh.

More seriously, any dev who's tired of playing footsie with MS development tools might want to look into Embarcadero's offerings. They're what Visual C++ ought to have been, except more and better by far. They're truly VISUAL like Visual Basic, but not language-lame like VB. Genuinely a pleasure to use.

The Embarcadero stuff is expensive to purchase (so equally useless for open source/hobbyists/low volume businesses as Visual Studio will now become) and might not work with 3rd party binary libraries. They also don't have a very convincing track record about 64 bit and OS-X support. I would stay away from their stuff, no matter how convenient it might be and even if I had the money to buy it. I haven't really regretted ditching Delphi (it was version 7 or so, I think then) back in 2008 or so...I did live a fairly painful period for a couple of years trying to do Windows GUI programming with the win32 APIs etc...Fortunately the Qt framework's licensing was changed and they introduced the Qt Creator IDE, so I was able to switch into programming with those tools...

[Meffy]

Expensive it is, especially for the Architect package. That does put the out of reach for hobby devs. But such luxury! Love it to bits. 64 bits, even, in the latest version. :-}

They do have a "Starter Edition" that's much cheaper, but I don't know what its limitations are with respect to audio development.

[cheppner]

So you can't produce dlls with it? o.O
Or is it just that common window frameworks dont run in metro?

[rola]

Yes, but to any Windows user that's counter-intuitive. It's also not obvious from the interface, unlike the red x button. Instead of making things immediately available for you, they make you go to a unmarked area to find the control, then you have to use a gesture to use it. For a touch screen device that makes sense, but it seems lazy not to give mouse users a simpler, more obvious way of closing applications. And when all of the applications run fullscreen or splitscreen, you need to learn the location and method of using all of the controls that are just button clicks on Windows 7 (closing, changing windows, accessing menus, moving applications, etc.)

Yes Metro apps are not designed for mouse operation. But it's good to have them available on your desktop PC if Windows8 becomes the dominating tablet OS. It will be so much easier to develop for than iOS. It's not like you're forced to use Metro apps.

They shouldn't have gotten rid of the start menu however.

[Meffy]

From what I can see, the objection is that devs using MS' free (?) compiler will be forced to make Metro apps, not that anyone will be forced to use them. Fine to give users options; not so fine to take options away from developers.

[Jeff McClintock]

From what I can see, the objection is that devs using MS' free (?) compiler will be forced to make Metro apps, not that anyone will be forced to use them. Fine to give users options; not so fine to take options away from developers.

ARM based Windows 8 machines won't have desktop mode at all, only Metro. To me it look like Microsoft is phasing out the 'desktop'. The new Microsoft App Store won't sell desktop apps, only Metro ones.
Considering how dam convenient app stores are, and how many users will see the app store as the only way to get software - is it going to be viable trying to sell desktop applications in the future???

[bM3w]

From what I can see, the objection is that devs using MS' free (?) compiler will be forced to make Metro apps, not that anyone will be forced to use them. Fine to give users options; not so fine to take options away from developers.

From what I can see VS10 Express is still free, still available and still continues to work for classic Desktop apps.

[Meffy]

Cool. As long as MS keep supporting it with bug fixes and such, and don't cripple it for use with new OSes. Regardless I don't like it when an OS maker forces devs to dance to its tune this way. Any OS maker.

I should emphasize that it doesn't affect me personally. I've not used MS development tools since the 1990s and haven't planned to return. :-} What I have works for me.

[Xenakios]

From what I can see, the objection is that devs using MS' free (?) compiler will be forced to make Metro apps, not that anyone will be forced to use them. Fine to give users options; not so fine to take options away from developers.

From what I can see VS10 Express is still free, still available and still continues to work for classic Desktop apps.

The VS2010 compiler unfortunately misses C++ language and code performance enhancements that would be available from the VS2011 compiler...That's what makes this so frustrating. (As a side note, using C++11 on Mac OS-X isn't incredibly convenient either if the compiled stuff also has to run on pre-Lion OS-X versions.)

[Big Tick]

Sounds like a concerted push from both Apple and Microsoft, to get DAW users to switch to Linux.

[DuX]

Sounds like a concerted push from both Apple and Microsoft, to get DAW users to switch to Linux.

May your words become reality.

Something is really happening, like monopolies becoming even more greedy, as greed can only give birth to more greed, and there's no end to it. Unless someone ["dictator" or corporation as a whole] dies. It's the worst drug beside power, and sex is also quite important, eh?

My hope is that all these monopolies will get what they deserve in the end, and the consumers can only profit from it, greatly, as they could finally forget about licensing your OS, and they would discover that they have so many choices of UI that one becomes spoiled... not restricted to just one UI that some consortium of psychotic corporate patients devised.

I mean "X" should be visible all the time, come on! Buttons for starting the apps should always be within reach, not buried within six menus and sub-menus. I mean, it's so logical... only corporate psycho-vampires and control freaks can make things so complicated, holy brown smelly stuff!

Cheers!

[thevinn]

I'm pretty sure this will finally fuel the rise of Linux desktops that are actually USABLE.