KVR Audio

Lode_Runner · Post by **Lode_Runner** » Sun May 27, 2012 2:19 am

Hi all,

I'm looking for a midi controller to use with my sample libraries (I use FL Studio with Kontakt and third party libraries, EWQL Play and several EW libraries, and the synths etc that come packaged in NI Komplete, and am looking to throw Trilian, Omnisphere, Diva and Zebra into the mix). I've become interested particularly in playing piano sounds as expressively as I can (eg lots of velocity layers, half pedaling etc), and am looking for a controller that is up to the task. I'd also like to use it to play Hammond organ, Rhodes EP, synths, bass guitar, orchestral and world music sample libraries etc. Ultimately I'd like something that looks stylish and feels good (like an antique grand piano) rather than feeling cheap and plasticy.

I'm currently considering the Kurzweil PC3X as it has:
88 keys, weighted action (although I'm not sure if this is graded hammer action), after-touch (albeit channel, not poly), continuous pedals, mod and pitch wheels, and 9 sliders. It is built solidly and one review I've read said the keys feel better (tactile) than your standard plastic keys - not as smooth and cheap feeling.

The majority of reviews though don't say much about the playability and the usability as a Midi controller, but seem to focus mostly on the quality of the on-board sounds, which is largely irrelevant to me because I want to use it with my computer and its sample libraries which I think sound much better.

So the question I have is, do you think the PCX3 is what I'm looking for, or are there better and cheaper options that do the things I want the keyboard for?

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sun May 27, 2012 3:30 am

Go to a store and play one. Trust yourself.

Actually of the dream workstations for me it's Tyros followed by PC3K
Even though the Tyros is considered flimsy in as far as structural integrity.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Sun May 27, 2012 4:25 am

It has a very good keyboard, so yes, it's very "playable", and it's perfectly usable as a MIDI controller. An option that's not "better and cheaper", just "cheaper" is PC38LE. It has the exact same keyboard and also doesn't feel "cheap" at all. It just doesn't have all those nice sliders.

Lode_Runner · Post by **Lode_Runner** » Sun May 27, 2012 7:48 am

Go to a store and play one. Trust yourself.

That would be the way I'd do things normally, but 1. I'm a guitarist who wants to learn to play piano properly. I don't trust myself to know a great keybed from a bad one at this stage, although 6 months down the track I know I'll be happier if I got a good one. 2. The stores around my area don't seem to stock Kurzweil. I'm looking to buy blindly from a guy in another city 1000kms away.

An option that's not "better and cheaper", just "cheaper" is PC38LE. It has the exact same keyboard and also doesn't feel "cheap" at all.

Ironically, I can get the PC3x cheaper. However, as a result of your suggestion I've found there are Kurzweil stage pianos that are cheaper - the SP4-8. They have 88 weighted keys (Fatar TP100 as opposed to Fatar TP40L - not sure about the difference here), mod and pitch wheels, and one foot switch and one continuous pedal (as opposed to 3 and 2 respectively), and no sliders, but for my purposes this seems to cover most bases - I either don't need or won't use the other stuff.

How does the Fatar TP100 compare to the Fatar TP40L in feel? Also, is the TP40L too light weight to feel like a true piano?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:20 am

PC3 is a MAGNIFICENT MIDI controller. I can only recommend it.

TP40L is just fine, it is not too light weight, you can play piano stuff really well on it.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:30 am

They're both successful designs and with a different feel. TP/40L is better. TP/100 may feel "heavier" but I wouldn't say it's any better for a "piano feel". It's a good "lightweight" keyboard, in any case.

If you really want a high quality keyboard with a "piano feel", I recommend Yamaha CP5. It's simply amazing. The keybed is totally at another level, better than Kurzweil's and also better than CP33, CP50, P155's, etc. so don't listen to reviews that mention it's "the same" as the lower end models.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:41 am

CP5 is quite a bit more expensive though. And Kurzweil still has better MIDI controlling possibilities in their Setup mode.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:48 am

It's about the same price as PC3 LE8 at least, and since he's most interested in a high quality keyboard and feel, I think it's a better choice.

Lode_Runner · Post by **Lode_Runner** » Sun May 27, 2012 11:00 am

Thanks Shy and Evil Dragon.

The CP5 looks good - wooden keys with synthetic ivory sounds like what I'm looking for - wish the Kurzweil had that - I just discovered Fatar has the TP40 Wood with graded hammer action, so it's not such an unrealistic dream.

I've found the CP5 in stores for what the PC3x should retail for, but I can't afford to buy either new. I'm considering the Kurzweil as I've found it second hand for cheaper.

Evil Dragon's testimony has pretty much sold it to me.

ebfunk · Post by **ebfunk** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:38 am

Kurzweil PC3x makes a great controller. You will not be dissatisfied. The keys are not a great weighted piano feel, but designed to attempt a compromise for making synth and organ easier to play than a traditional weighted key bed. Still not nearly as good as a true waterfall keyboard, but they will do if organ is not your main instrument. It's weighted feel is certainly playable but not the best.

As for a truly expressive piano feel, I can highly recommend the Roland RD700GXF, simply delightful to play. For the budget minded, I picked up a demo Kawai MP5 for $800 (used should go even cheaper) and as a controller for Ivory Grand II it is spot on, a great action with which I was instantly comfortable.

Lode_Runner · Post by **Lode_Runner** » Mon May 28, 2012 11:18 am

Thanks ebfunk.

The general consensus on the Kurzweil that I'm getting is that it's a great Midi controller, and that it's keybed is very playable for piano pieces although there are more realistic feeling keybeds for piano replication if that were my one and only priority.

To be honest a compromise that allows for very good performance of piano pieces and reasonably good performance of organ/synth pieces would be ideal for me, so long as I'd be able to easily sit down at a real piano after learning on it and perform without too much hindrance.

Basically at the end of the day I'd like to be able to play piano pieces as expressively (soft to loud) as the Midi piece in this video (watch from 1:22 to 2:22)

If I could pull that performance off on a PC3x (and then on a piano) then I'd be happy.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:03 pm

You will probably have to pick your favourite velocity curve on the PC3x, but don't worry, there's a decent selection to choose from. Just take notice - Kurzweils are really flexible - you can select a velocity curve for local sounds (in Master mode), and separate velocity curves for MIDI transmit and MIDI receive (in MIDI mode). Everything correlates, so you will probably have to play with those settings a bit till you find what fits you best. But it's worth it.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Tue May 29, 2012 12:26 am

That's some serious money to lay out for an instrument you don't already play. I'm a multi insrumentalist who also plays guitar but not keys. Honestly tried and tried never really got into it. Might want to think about a ztar You get to start with what you know.

Lode_Runner · Post by **Lode_Runner** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:57 am

tapper mike wrote:That's some serious money to lay out for an instrument you don't already play. I'm a multi insrumentalist who also plays guitar but not keys. Honestly tried and tried never really got into it. Might want to think about a ztar You get to start with what you know.

Well actually, while I'm a guitarist (and banjo player) mostly, my first instrument was a keyboard with synth action keys (Yamaha PSR-300) which I still play every now and then so I have a little knowledge of keys, enough to know I'd get into it and enjoy playing it, but not nearly enough to judge whether a keybed has good piano action or not.

In relation to the cost I'll be getting it second hand, definitely wouldn't pay retail, and I'll be selling my Marshall TSL Amp which has been sitting in its box for all but a day since I bought it back in 2005, so the worst that can happen is that I'll be trading one dust gathering item for another. On the other hand, having a good instrument is more likely to inspire me and motivate me to get good, where a bad one may cause me to give up in despair.

Also the main reason I'm looking to get a good midi controller is for composition - to use with my NI and EWQL (and now Imperfect Samples) libraries and VSTs so I want it for that already, but on top of that I've also become obsessed with listening to piano for the last six months and wanting to play it (I've spent a fair amount of time staring through the window at the Bechstein grands in the local piano store!) The fantasy isn't going away anytime soon.

I've thought about adding a hex pickup to my guitar for using with guitar like virtual instruments (eg when I buy Trilian I'd rather play it on guitar than keys), although that's probably living in the past isn't it. I don't know about Ztar... it just reminds me to much of those keyboards people used to wear like a guitar back in the 80s... (edit - no actually it's completely different - kind of really interesting - but I think I'd still prefer to play keys as it will stop me playing every instrument like it's a guitar! The melodies I come up with will be different on a piano)

EvilDragon wrote:You will probably have to pick your favourite velocity curve on the PC3x, but don't worry, there's a decent selection to choose from. Just take notice - Kurzweils are really flexible - you can select a velocity curve for local sounds (in Master mode), and separate velocity curves for MIDI transmit and MIDI receive (in MIDI mode). Everything correlates, so you will probably have to play with those settings a bit till you find what fits you best. But it's worth it.

Is it possible to change velocity curves relatively quickly? I assume that the ideal velocity curve for MIDI transmit will differ from VST to VST (or sample library to sample library)?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue May 29, 2012 12:38 pm

Yeah, it's real simple.

1. Press MIDI button (to the left of the display)
2. You're on MIDI XMIT (Transmit) page not. Press down cursor button 4 times
3. Use the alpha wheel to select the velocity curve you want. Or just type a number from 1 to 10

Should I go for a Kurzweil PC3x or other controller?