plagiarism of other sample collections

[penguinfromdeep]

So let's say I heard a cool loop on a sample cd, let's say it's a musical loop consisting of chord progression with some additional sounds (but not really a melody). Now I replicate the same chord progression loop with as close as possible with the same sound and style. It's a bit different of course and in different key, and the last chord is slightly in different voicing. Would this be illegal if I sold my sample cd with this loop that sounds a bit similar to another loop from a competitors sample cd? I think chord progressions in itself are not copyrighted ... But if it otherwise sounds similar, would that be illegal (of course, I wouldn't have SAMPLED the original loop, only copied the style and bit of the progression). Also the rhythm would be the same, you could say by hearing them side by side that the other one was "inspired" by the other one.

[Tricky-Loops]

So let's say I heard a cool loop on a sample cd, let's say it's a musical loop consisting of chord progression with some additional sounds (but not really a melody). Now I replicate the same chord progression loop with as close as possible with the same sound and style. It's a bit different of course and in different key, and the last chord is slightly in different voicing. Would this be illegal if I sold my sample cd with this loop that sounds a bit similar to another loop from a competitors sample cd? I think chord progressions in itself are not copyrighted ... But if it otherwise sounds similar, would that be illegal (of course, I wouldn't have SAMPLED the original loop, only copied the style and bit of the progression). Also the rhythm would be the same, you could say by hearing them side by side that the other one was "inspired" by the other one.

If they can prove that you have tried to imitate it to 100 %, I think it would be illegal. But if you say: "Oops, I've never heard the other loop, it's absolutely coincidental that it sounds the same..." -- then it should be no problem. There are millions of sample packs out there - you can't know every sample and the chance that you make a sample that sounds similar to an other is very high...

[penguinfromdeep]

If they can prove that you have tried to imitate it to 100 %, I think it would be illegal. But if you say: "Oops, I've never heard the other loop, it's absolutely coincidental that it sounds the same..." -- then it should be no problem. There are millions of sample packs out there - you can't know every sample and the chance that you make a sample that sounds similar to an other is very high...

Yes, but you can be inspired too by other loops and it's not illegal I think .. To do a bit in the same style. But yeah, of course if it's exactly the same it would be illegal. It's difficult ... It's only a loop, not a full musical work though.
Anyways, when is imitation illegal? In electronic dance msuic there's a lot of imitation ..

[JJBiener]

So let's say I heard a cool loop on a sample cd, let's say it's a musical loop consisting of chord progression with some additional sounds (but not really a melody). Now I replicate the same chord progression loop with as close as possible with the same sound and style. It's a bit different of course and in different key, and the last chord is slightly in different voicing. Would this be illegal if I sold my sample cd with this loop that sounds a bit similar to another loop from a competitors sample cd? I think chord progressions in itself are not copyrighted ... But if it otherwise sounds similar, would that be illegal (of course, I wouldn't have SAMPLED the original loop, only copied the style and bit of the progression). Also the rhythm would be the same, you could say by hearing them side by side that the other one was "inspired" by the other one.

In general, you can recreate a loop without fear of copyright infringement. A chord progression is not copyrightable. The only possible concern is if the sample can be considered a composition, and that seems unlikely from your description. Obviously, you can't market your loops as if it were the one you recreated. Other than that, I don't think you need to worry.

[tcollins]

In no way is it cool to copy someone else's musical idea, at least in the way you're describing. Why would you want to? Hopefully, the reason you became a musician/composer in the first place was to find your own voice. Let the original artist, who spent the time and had the talent to create the loop, make a living for him/herself. We are all at times inspired by someone else's work. That's the way it should be. But find your own muse- you may come up with something much better!

FWIW, here's something that happened to me:
Years ago, as an employee at a recording studio/production house I was directed to create a jingle for an local insurance agency that sounded like a famous artist's hit song. I was told to make it sound like the original without actually copying it. I changed the melody. I changed the chord progression. I changed the instrumental riffs. They changed the lyrics.

What happened?
The ad was pulled before a week went by after a call from the artist's lawyers.

It's the spirit of the thing, not whether or not you think you can get away with it.

[penguinfromdeep]

Thanks for your replies guys, really helpful! I know morally it's not definitely right Yeah, it was more of a hypothetical question. I am interested what is imitation in the face of law, also because loops can't be really considered as full musical works. Also they are part of a collection (ie. sample cd). When you are making electronic dance music loops it has to sound like everything else to sell, it has to sound like beatport top ten etc... I think plagiarism in itself is not really illegal

[hollowsun]

I think plagiarism in itself is not really illegal

Really?

Proceed with caution!

[penguinfromdeep]

yep, caution should be used for sure when you are sailing in these waters

[sampleria]

Plagiarism is when you steal a song or a part of a song (melody). There are rules from which is deducted if a song/part is a copy or not. These days when people experimented almost all sound/ notes combiinations available, it is useless to say if a song is born from another's idea.

I guess dubstep is a response to this issue- the lack of musical ideas, the lack of "virgin" melody.

No one has the rights to own some notes combinations, that's why music is universal. I am sure you can replicate exactly the sounds with same hardware/ software, but keep in mind that, for example, copying a loop 16 bars long could be stealing, but one of 2 or 4 bars not. Why? Because there are too many chances that someone else made the exact 2 or 4 bars sound combinations, but that 16 bars combination of sounds could be unique. This could be plagiarism.

Excuse my poor English.

[herodotus]

It's the spirit of the thing, not whether or not you think you can get away with it.

Actually, the moral of your story seems more to be: 'don't piss off high priced lawyers'.

Which is almost always good advice.

[penguinfromdeep]

True!

[thecontrolcentre]

I think plagiarism in itself is not really illegal

http://www.plagiarism.org/plag_article_ ... arism.html

[SampleScience]

I think plagiarism in itself is not really illegal

http://www.plagiarism.org/plag_article_ ... arism.html

link doesn't work.

[woggle]

I think plagiarism in itself is not really illegal

http://www.plagiarism.org/plag_article_ ... arism.html

is that your own link, or did you copy it from someone else?

[Xleth]

Of course you can commit copyright infringement (federal crime) if you create a DERIVATIVE work (which you 100% are). It largely depends on the non-triviality of the original work. If it is a trivial, obvious, almost technical solution, without much creativity and invention being put into it, then it is not "copyrightable" (it might be patentable or trademarkable though). However, that depends on how the judge sees it.
(I am not a lawyer, but I think I know quite a lot about this topic.)