KVR Audio

festeringheap · Post by **festeringheap** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:31 pm

sellyoursoul wrote:I won't be buying any RE plugins if licenses are non-transferable. I hope that you guys think this one over, and come to a conclusion sooner, rather than later.

Let me get this straight.

You need REs to be transferable, so that you can sell them for a loss?

djanthonyw · Post by **djanthonyw** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:34 pm

What's worse... selling them... or keeping them even if you have no interest in using them anymore?

festeringheap · Post by **festeringheap** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:38 pm

Why buy them in the first place then?

ThomasLehmann · Post by **ThomasLehmann** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:45 pm

Absolutely, but actually I think you guys have ended up in the same - or worse - position to most VST vendors, which is the opposite of your stated intention. Any commercial VST vendor will of course need to produce updates to account for OS changes, etc, or they will soon go out of business. Propellerhead is in exactly the same position. There's no difference there....

BUT the big difference is that Propellerhead is inviting us to put all our eggs in one basket - yours. And as you so: "so long as we're around". I have personally been in exactly the position you describe with a VST vendor that I purchased from - Kjaerhus Audio - who are no longer around. And when I change my computer I will no longer have access to using the very nice effects I purchased from them.

That said, my investment was only about £100 or so (in a sale). With RE the cumulative investment would, I suspect, be much higher for me, and for many others no doubt, with so many tempting goodies on the table! It's a level of investment that would be essentially a gamble in terms of trusting your ongoing business success.

Once again, I have no doubt (at present) that Propellerhead will continue to be a hugely successful business. But you have to admit it's a gamble that you are asking all your users to take from here on, and quite a significant one in terms of likely costs over the next few years. And who knows if the Euro crashes we could all be in a mess... Having experienced the annoyance of a vendor going out of business before, I rather prefer to spread my investment a little wider these days.

+1 +1 +1

memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:04 pm

oops wrong thread

Roger-S. · Post by **Roger-S.** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:04 pm

For this kind of policy I don't buy normally from Imageline either.
Bad enough, that those people, who already have the plugin, will have to pay the full price for the same RE.

Roger

emtear · Post by **emtear** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:06 pm

Anosou wrote:I do want to mention there's another side to it! If you buy a plug-in today it works on your system and all is well. Ponder if THAT company goes out of business - what happens when the next OS version comes? Or will you ever get 64-bit versions? An advantage of REs is that as long as we're around, the REs you've purchased will ALWAYS work - regardless of when you bought them.

In other formats, as you put it, you're only as future proof as the many many many companies. While I'm not saying one is better, there are things worth thinking about as upsides too regarding this.

I don't understand how you can expect any of us to believe that you will host a plug-in forever. Right now all I see is excuses and maybes. I foolishly thought that this was going to be a game changer, but it is turning into a joke.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but there is a reality here. We can argue opinion if you want but seriously Propellerhead flopped on this one.

Of course they will sell some units, but if they implemented this idea in a better way they could have taken over. Maybe time will change things but...

This is a REally big oooops!

Matt

Teksonik · Post by **Teksonik** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:24 pm

To me Rack Extensions are just the Props feeble attempt to add third party plugin support....12 years late to the game......too little too late for me......

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:36 pm

The way I could see this being ok is if RE's were substantially cheaper than their VST counterparts, like a third, and then that would compensate not being able to resell RE's. And it would still seem like a big risk. The thing about VST's is I'm not stringing all my pearls on one thread, if a VST dev goes under I may suffer a small loss, but if Props goes under all my REs are at risk, even if the developers themselves are fine. If I simply find a better or even a second optional host I am not constrained to one system (yeah I know Rewire exists, just it is not the same). And part of my reluctance of closed systems is that if Props does go down, they could take a bunch of devs who invested to heavily in that gamble with them. With VSTs, if a host dies the devs are fine, if a dev dies the hosts are fine, it is much more dynamic. That said, I'd love a system like Props that manages my licenses and keeps me updated regarding versions, there is much I like about the system but the big problems are regarding how it is implemented as a business.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:42 pm

You can clearly see in this forum the ones that have been subdue by the PH marketing sugar....
Good Lord.
It is quite simple: give me your money, sign a contract subject to our changes, take it or... Nope! You can't leave..... You loose it all.
Sick!

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:50 pm

When I used Ableton Live and Operator came out, I remember being very reluctant to buy it, thinking that though I was happy I may one day switch hosts and didn't want to get locked into a proprietary format. Well, I'm no longer on Live and so that kind of validates for me my position. But with Operator I believe I would have at least been able to sell it.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:00 pm

I never understood that part about how is possible that someone can sell you something but then you can not resold it

It seems like a little dictatorship gesture. Isn't this illegal in some EU countries?

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:15 pm

kmonkey wrote:I never understood that part about how is possible that someone can sell you something but then you can not resold it

It seems like a little dictatorship gesture. Isn't this illegal in some EU countries?

Welcome to the world of differences between physical goods and "intellectual" goods/licenses. There will likely be another decade or threetwo before these issues are ironed out uniformly throughout human society. Keep challenging it; that's what makes things get adjusted. The thing most needing to go? The fake contract that is the EULA (also knows as a sneak wrap license). Instead of it getting eliminated, it's been spreading to other markets/concepts.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:18 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
kmonkey wrote:I never understood that part about how is possible that someone can sell you something but then you can not resold it

It seems like a little dictatorship gesture. Isn't this illegal in some EU countries?
Welcome to the world of differences between physical goods and "intellectual" goods/licenses. There will likely be another decade or threetwo before these issues are ironed out uniformly throughout human society. Keep challenging it; that's what makes things get adjusted. The thing most needing to go? The fake contract that is the EULA (also knows as a sneak wrap license). Instead of it getting eliminated, it's been spreading to other markets/concepts.

Interesting...what do you suggest (it's a honest question with no hidden lines) ?

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:19 pm

I'd suggest simplicity, the right to sell anything you buy. If I am only buying a license, then I should be able to sell the same license.

Propellerheads RE format not transferrable