KVR Audio

jontah · Post by **jontah** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:08 pm

Heya,

I'm pretty new into this whole epic cinematic music, but I tend to REALLY REALLY like it.

I'm wondering how to achieve something like this:

what plugins are used, are there any specific ways to do this etc? how do I actually LEARN how to compose things like this?

I've got loads of kontakt libraries, I know sound design to a decent level atleast. I've got East West Silver Symphonic Orchestra for MAC.

And yes they are all bought.

Other cinematic libraries I have:

Evolve R2 for kontakt
Evolve Mutations
Evolve Mutations 2
Heavyocity Damage
Session Strings
Cinematic Guitars
West Africa
ProjectSam Symphobia 2
Stromdrum
VIR2 Violence

as you see I have loads of epic percussions, simply because I really love the sound of them. But I never got to actually use them in such a matter. Just for other fun stuff.

So, I'd really like to get started with this, where do I even begin?

The idea is to blend this together with other types of music and come up with my own style.

Thanks alot!

Bobbotov · Post by **Bobbotov** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:46 pm

It is like you have an entire palette of colors but want to know how to paint. Well, pick the right color color and put it in the right place.

I am being facetious. You certainly have the enough tools to work with creating epic music or to emulate the clip you provided except maybe the vocal. I do not know how much classical music or world music you are familiar with but both are sources of inspiration for epic music. It is all about dynamics and sonic coloring. In that respect it is like painting where you are dealing with light and dark and balancing the two.

There are numerous examples of epic music nowadays in both games and movies. Listen to them and try to figure out what is going on. What is the mood, the pacing, how do the sounds emerge and recede, what instruments are used, how are drums and percussion used, what effects are being employed, etc. The clip you provided has a middle eastern feeling with very sparse percussive embellishments. Mostly drone or sustained synth sounds with that middle eastern type vocal on top. Quite simple actually.

And in answer to your question about how you learn to do things like this, the answer is you learn by doing it. But first you have to listen and really hear what is going on.

tehlord · Post by **tehlord** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:50 pm

For a musician to use his tools, he must first become a musician.

Yeah that sounds like some sort of Confucius like nugget of wisdom but it's true.

Music isn't about the tools you use, they're a means to an end.

Nanakai · Post by **Nanakai** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:50 am

Answers here will be vague because you're asking for a lot. BUT! I think I can help.

Start simply. Think about a typical rock drum set. It is not one instrument, it is a collection of instruments. Think of how each instrument acts in music. Never mind the genre, just think about how it feels. In a 4/4 rock beat, the snare hits the backbeat( 2 and 4). The hats make the meter really stand out and usually hit every quarter, eight or sixteenth notes (depending on the feel desired). The kick can do a lot for the groove or accenting the snare. These are how I interpret their functions, and you may interpret them differently, but the point is to be aware of it. I suggest playing (not programming) beats with drum kit samples first to get that feeling.

So, with this in mind, try applying that to cinematic percussion. Identify a low drum, a mid drum and a high drum. Make the high drums your hats, the mid drum your snare and the low drum your kick. Put your "snare" on the 2 and 4. Alternatively, go half-time and put the "snare" on 3. Really emphasize the hit on that "snare" sound. Try making a really consistant beat in the high-range - not necessarily straight 8ths, but pick a cool 2 or 4 bar pattern and repeat it.

Most important, I think, is to involve your body when writing these parts. Clap along to an epic drum sound you like and try to replicate one of the parts, or add one of your own.

I'm kinda busy now, but sometime this weekend I will try to put up an example or two of what I mean.

Hope I could help.

jontah · Post by **jontah** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:32 am

Nanakai wrote:Answers here will be vague because you're asking for a lot. BUT! I think I can help.

Start simply. Think about a typical rock drum set. It is not one instrument, it is a collection of instruments. Think of how each instrument acts in music. Never mind the genre, just think about how it feels. In a 4/4 rock beat, the snare hits the backbeat( 2 and 4). The hats make the meter really stand out and usually hit every quarter, eight or sixteenth notes (depending on the feel desired). The kick can do a lot for the groove or accenting the snare. These are how I interpret their functions, and you may interpret them differently, but the point is to be aware of it. I suggest playing (not programming) beats with drum kit samples first to get that feeling.

So, with this in mind, try applying that to cinematic percussion. Identify a low drum, a mid drum and a high drum. Make the high drums your hats, the mid drum your snare and the low drum your kick. Put your "snare" on the 2 and 4. Alternatively, go half-time and put the "snare" on 3. Really emphasize the hit on that "snare" sound. Try making a really consistant beat in the high-range - not necessarily straight 8ths, but pick a cool 2 or 4 bar pattern and repeat it.

Most important, I think, is to involve your body when writing these parts. Clap along to an epic drum sound you like and try to replicate one of the parts, or add one of your own.

I'm kinda busy now, but sometime this weekend I will try to put up an example or two of what I mean.

Hope I could help.

Thanks alot! I don't quite understand how playnig normal drums could be contributing to anything good in epic film music like this though.. what I hear in the clips are totally different rhythms..

I would appreciate that upload, thanks yet again Nanakai for trying to help out!

Bobotov wrote:It is like you have an entire palette of colors but want to know how to paint. Well, pick the right color color and put it in the right place.

I am being facetious. You certainly have the enough tools to work with creating epic music or to emulate the clip you provided except maybe the vocal. I do not know how much classical music or world music you are familiar with but both are sources of inspiration for epic music. It is all about dynamics and sonic coloring. In that respect it is like painting where you are dealing with light and dark and balancing the two.

There are numerous examples of epic music nowadays in both games and movies. Listen to them and try to figure out what is going on. What is the mood, the pacing, how do the sounds emerge and recede, what instruments are used, how are drums and percussion used, what effects are being employed, etc. The clip you provided has a middle eastern feeling with very sparse percussive embellishments. Mostly drone or sustained synth sounds with that middle eastern type vocal on top. Quite simple actually.

And in answer to your question about how you learn to do things like this, the answer is you learn by doing it. But first you have to listen and really hear what is going on.

I don't have any specific classical music training except for that I took lessons in music theory in a private school.. so I know the basics and the scales and stuff. What do I need to read up on here? suggestions?

That's a very good advice, I'm gonna listen closely to all the elements separately and analyze them. I've tried this out before, it's the same as symphonic orchestras, I've got the sounds.. but it's so hard to get it to sound like an epic orchestra.. eventhough I did some reading to get knowledge about how orchestras should be layered and played, with the dynamics of breath and expression etc etc.. I just got something like this (and some troubles on the way with EastWest, if anyone knows what the problem is, I'd be really happy to know):

This was supposed to be a tribute to "the fighting spirit" in the series of Naruto, I really got stuck with the melody, but I wanted to evolve it into some epic orchestra.

Thanks alot for the answers so far.[/quote]

Bobbotov · Post by **Bobbotov** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:32 pm

I can't help you with the East/West problems but the melody is a good start for something epic. But is only a starting point. You need to know where it is going otherwise you will be stuck in a rut with the same melody over and over. Without a destination you will just wander around aimlessly. There are just so many variations on a theme that can be done before it gets boring. Remember the rule of three: after three times the mind begins to want change. Also, do not fall in love with whatever you come up with: it is all subject to modification or possibly tossing it for something else that might be better.

Epic orchestras use a lot of brass: trumpets, trombones, french horns, etc. Listen to some Edgar Varese: . Listen to how he embellishes the melody with percussion. Another example of epic orchestras would be something from Miklos Rosza:

Listen to Hans Zimmer:

He and John Williams are probably some of the best composers of epic music.

So, you need to educate yourself on the style you hope to achieve and the instruments you choose to use. Youtube has tons of examples. Just type in "epic music."

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:49 pm

Dramatic orchestral music requires a strong background in theory-based composition, and a working knowledge of the functions of the various parts of an orchestra. You can fake this to a certain extent at least for a little while, but pulling off even a few minutes of emotional, cinematic orchestra is going to demand experience and talent.

Aside from the last few seconds of that Diablo video, most of the music was basically a ripoff of Dead Can Dance. Go check out some of their music.

angelinni · Post by **angelinni** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:09 pm

this may help you to start:
http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/pro ... ral-track/

jontah · Post by **jontah** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:41 pm

Awsome, thanks alot for the replies! I will check it out.

I also found some great stuff on youtube.. hope it's enough, if not I'll get back here to ask a few more questions in the future.

I do wonder though, where do I get those powerful epic kind of voices such as in the Diablo trailer? I found a kontakt library for this called 8dio Francesca, it's part of the forgotten voices series..

Do you guys have any other libraries to recommend that is close to this? I've been looking everywhere.. I need something in addition to this forgotten voices, it's quite epic, but I need some variation aswell.

Thanks

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:49 am

jontah wrote:I do wonder though, where do I get those powerful epic kind of voices such as in the Diablo trailer? I found a kontakt library for this called 8dio Francesca, it's part of the forgotten voices series..

As I sort of mentioned in my previous post, the vocals are someone trying to imitate Lisa Gerrard from Dead Can Dance (I'm 99% sure that isn't her). She's done a lot of film soundtrack work, starting with Gladiator, and has a fairly distinctive voice. I don't know if there are any libraries which attempt to approximate her sound, but that's the basis of what you're hearing in the Diablo trailer.

Edit: Here's a good example.

jontah · Post by **jontah** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:03 pm

deastman wrote:
jontah wrote:I do wonder though, where do I get those powerful epic kind of voices such as in the Diablo trailer? I found a kontakt library for this called 8dio Francesca, it's part of the forgotten voices series..
As I sort of mentioned in my previous post, the vocals are someone trying to imitate Lisa Gerrard from Dead Can Dance (I'm 99% sure that isn't her). She's done a lot of film soundtrack work, starting with Gladiator, and has a fairly distinctive voice. I don't know if there are any libraries which attempt to approximate her sound, but that's the basis of what you're hearing in the Diablo trailer.

Edit: Here's a good example.

yep this is exactly what I'm looking for, but even more powerful, this sounds more like a song to me.. I just need that weird "aaahieueaueuhwueuweuh" sound, yeah know what I mean. I found out that Sonokinetic had some awsome ones too, but not really what I was looking for, if anyone has any suggestions on libraries I'd be more than happy..

btw DCD rules

ESPECTRO · Post by **ESPECTRO** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:26 pm

Well, you've invested close to $3,000 on libraries to make big orchestral music - but unfortunately, this isn't a problem you can buy your way out of. You'll need to learn at least some basic to intermediate music theory. And since money doesn't appear to be that big an obstacle, you might want to look into some online courses like this one:

http://www.berkleemusic.com/orchestration

I took this class (Orchestration 1) - and I don't read music very well (just barely), but I studied every music theory book I could get my hands on over the 4 months leading up to the class, and honestly without that it would have been completely over my head.

Epic movie sounds