What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

Problem with creating melody

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Nanakai
KVRian
 
592 posts since 3 Oct, 2011

Postby Nanakai; Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:29 pm

jancivil wrote:blah blah blah


I understand that all forms of musical expression are valid, regardless of whether you think they're good or just "more suitable to [my] understanding of music". You completely misunderstood the nature of my contention with you.

I don't care what you've shown, or can show or even whether you're right or wrong. I care that you think you can treat people like complete morons just because they disagree with you. Sure, you have great things to share, since you obviously love music quite a bit and I think you do have a point of view that is otherwise hard to find. But if I had to choose between never reading that point of view again or having to read it on every thread with some arrogant remark like, "Why are you composing?", then I'd rather you just go do something else with your time. If you would like to share your experience like an adult, then act like one. I rarely see you do so.
Trakstar
Banned

Postby Trakstar; Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:36 am

tapper mike wrote:The piano has been around for ....over 300 years now. They didn't have auto accompaniment back then organs and harpsichords even longer.

While I'm a big fan of chord progression writing it isn't the only method of song writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony


Keyboards, not pianos, But I know what you mean. I should have been a bit more specific. Keyboards within the Casio, Yamaha and Kurzweil vein. I mentioned about the polyphonic example earlier with the Peter and the Wolf, but sure thing, and there is always room for Innovation and new stuff.
NKF
KVRist
 
54 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from USA

Postby NKF; Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:57 pm

Trakstar wrote:I used to own a PSR1000 yamaha keyboard, and the chords were always selected with the left half of the keyboard as the accompaniment. The rest of the keyboard was for the melody playing. The accompaniment would consist of chords and harmonies with drum rhythms set in key which you could then alter with the keyboard. The accompaniment would then play in the new key and you could carry on playing along with the melody. In fact I think most keyboards have operated like this since they were invented, the chords always taking the backing part with the accompaniment and then being altered to support the melody which had the main focus or was the primary part of the compositions. When keyboardists play live they select the accompaniment and key signature which best suits which melody or music they were playing or writing. I always understood this to be the way of working with melodies and stuff_(EDIT) for Keyboards such as those like Yamaha, Casio and Kurzweil. Plus there was always a godd few selection of options for splitting the keyboard keys again so you could have one half brass and the other piano for even more variety. This is where I started before Id even heard of composing with stuff like we have today. I'd just bought a load of sampling stuff, tascam mixer that recorded onto sony minidisk and the keyboard for the main bulk of instruments and sounds and a friend told me about the new Ejay software he had just bought. Talk about finding out a little too late!. That was back in 2001


I think you will actually find that the concept of a melody sort of apart from the accompaniment especially on the piano/keyboard instrument actually a more modern technique in the romantic era where it was more common to hear songs set to piano where the voice was mimicked.

Another thing, the idea of chord progressions, even if they do seem to happen , the idea of thinking about them as chord progressions is also rather new at least in literature stemming from the late 190th century. Lots of stuff about chord succession but they tend to deal with 2 vertical chunks , not an entire phrase.

Composers , if you look at their manuscripts , usually have a melody , and then voices are added to that. You don't get a progression and then a melody to fit that. I would say this is even more noticeable with the more chromatic stuff where the motif was important so the other voices were subjugated to the melody , and not the progression.
jdlvoltron
KVRer
 
28 posts since 13 Nov, 2006, from United States

Postby jdlvoltron; Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:34 am

One thing you could try is to think of a common folk song you know, and then sitting at your midi keyboard and picking out the notes until you can recreate the whole thing. Training that way should help you play what's in your head.
fleeming1
KVRer
 
19 posts since 8 Jul, 2012, from United States

Postby fleeming1; Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:29 am

Use a microphone and sing or hum the melodies and record the output to hard disk. You could run the recorded melody and revise it again and again until you can get exactly what you really want.
Plasuma!!!
KVRist
 
34 posts since 15 Jan, 2012

Postby Plasuma!!!; Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:31 pm

jancivil wrote:
trewq wrote:Its defeating for me to come up with a melody first and then a chord progression. They have to go together.
I think in songs such as I sought to model, melody and harmony go hand in hand.

There is a trope that has a lot of traction, I noticed in this forum particularly, that puts chords first; in certain posts it's as if melody relies on 'chord progressions' for its existence. I don't think that's a very well-formed idea.

Historically, harmony as we speak of it today, technically, was a result of melodic lines working together, 'in harmony'.

Not many folks tend to think about where things come from, only what they can do with them. Computers are magic boxes to a majority of the planet, and software is science fiction leaked into reality from the fingertips of a keyboard wizard.

Now there are many cases where a chord progression will become the melody, as I'm sure you're aware, but your point remains true: the whole purpose of chords as structures in music are only for analysis in composition, as landmarks to help design more melodies that complement the material already there. This is the first thing we learn in practicing counterpoint: the importance of the line and voice leading in harmony.

I personally believe the idea of a chord progression as the basis of a song is a side-effect of half-assed theory teachers and a few too many guitar students being satisfied with not having to learn any technique besides homophonic polyphony.


Using blocked chords in music is the same as darkening guide lines and shapes while drawing something. Yeah, you can do it and it may be what you want, but not every subject looks good with the outlines so pronounced, and not every subject you think up will fit a simplified geometric template.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:33 pm

thank you, well said.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:38 pm

Nanakai wrote:
jancivil wrote:blah blah blah


I understand that all forms of musical expression are valid, regardless of whether you think they're good or just "more suitable to [my] understanding of music". You completely misunderstood the nature of my contention with you.

I don't care what you've shown, or can show or even whether you're right or wrong. I care that you think you can treat people like complete morons just because they disagree with you. Sure, you have great things to share, since you obviously love music quite a bit and I think you do have a point of view that is otherwise hard to find. But if I had to choose between never reading that point of view again or having to read it on every thread with some arrogant remark like, "Why are you composing?", then I'd rather you just go do something else with your time. If you would like to share your experience like an adult, then act like one. I rarely see you do so.
the expression of your contention with me so far shows me a reactive nature to the extent you dramatically distort my points to make them seem foolish, and now vicious.

I did not ask 'why are you composing'; that would be negative and the opposite of helpful. Everyone starts somewhere. I did not know why someone with that kind of method for 'creating melody', which isn't very creative and amounts to paint-by-numbers really, feels so free to advise people on melody making. I think it's a waste of everybody's time frankly.

So you don't like that, maybe it hits too close to home, and you take the opportunity to get personal. This is your adult behavior? "I rarely see..." Well you've shown a tendency here to distort what you see; here putting words in my mouth in service of a portrayal. Two posts to twist what I said into what you require to make that portrait. :shrug:
Nanakai
KVRian
 
592 posts since 3 Oct, 2011

Postby Nanakai; Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:54 pm

jancivil wrote:
Nanakai wrote:
jancivil wrote:blah blah blah


I understand that all forms of musical expression are valid, regardless of whether you think they're good or just "more suitable to [my] understanding of music". You completely misunderstood the nature of my contention with you.

I don't care what you've shown, or can show or even whether you're right or wrong. I care that you think you can treat people like complete morons just because they disagree with you. Sure, you have great things to share, since you obviously love music quite a bit and I think you do have a point of view that is otherwise hard to find. But if I had to choose between never reading that point of view again or having to read it on every thread with some arrogant remark like, "Why are you composing?", then I'd rather you just go do something else with your time. If you would like to share your experience like an adult, then act like one. I rarely see you do so.
the exptression of your contention with me shows me a reactive nature to the extent you distort my points to make them seem foolish and now vicious.

I did not ask 'why are you composing'; that would be negative and the opposite of helpful. I do not know why someone with that kind of method for 'creating melody', which isn't creative and amounts to paint-by-numbers really, feels so free to advise people on melody making. I think it's a waste of everybody's time frankly.

So you don't like that, maybe it hits too close to home, and you take the opportunity to get personal. This is your adult behavior?

It's kind of hypocritical IMO.


You don't get to decide what is and what isn't a waste of anyone's time. You shouldn't be putting other people down just because they don't jive with your view of what is or isn't creative. We're all at different levels of expertise, and we all come from different background and with different styles. if that bothers you, then go start your own forum.

You had a choice when you posted. You could have just said, "I don't think that's the best advice to give. Here's what I have to say:". Instead, you chose to put someone down. If you don't see that as vicious, then yes, you lack the perspective of a pro-social adult. Am I a hypocrite? Sure, but that doesn't change your own behavior. Remember, I'm responding to your arrogance, while you were (again) putting someone down because you think you're a better musician.

Again, I think you have a lot to contribute. But when you decide to treat people like crap, I'm going to take issue with it.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:04 pm

you're actually taking the time to correct a crochety old person's behavior. is this the best use of your energy at the moment? is this going to be the extent of your contribution to this board, because so far it seems to be.

Sure, how I put it is evidence of an at-times testy disposition. I don't mince words. I want them to consider it on my terms, 'am I being a bit daft'.

I am not shamed by your words. Knock yourself out.
Nanakai
KVRian
 
592 posts since 3 Oct, 2011

Postby Nanakai; Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:13 pm

As long as you feel fit to spend your energy being a crotchety old person, I will happily spend the energy to wag my finger at you.

If your goal is to spread your considerable wealth of knowledge, there are better ways to do it. I understand having a snarky attitude, but it's easier for people here to look up to your wisdom when they don't have to see your a**hole.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
seacouch
KVRist
 
88 posts since 29 Mar, 2009

Postby seacouch; Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:53 pm

Nanakai wrote:As long as you feel fit to spend your energy being a crotchety old person, I will happily spend the energy to wag my finger at you.

If your goal is to spread your considerable wealth of knowledge, there are better ways to do it. I understand having a snarky attitude, but it's easier for people here to look up to your wisdom when they don't have to see your a**hole.



Most web-forums have their resident toxic know-it-all types, fiercely defending their know-it-all turf. You have to realize that these are emotionally damaged individuals, pretty much by definition, and while sparring with them at times might be fun, it usually amounts to "feeding the troll". I endorse the "mute" button as a humane alternative.
Trakstar
Banned

Postby Trakstar; Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:05 pm

I see jancivils at it again :smack: Someone forget to take their afternoon medication again tut tut. Please dont mind the monster, you tend to get used to it after a while, tad argumentative and very very temperamental, its hard not to get into these intense debates when jancivil is around. Ive learned to tread warily concerning the said person, but I have to admit you definitely learn something and everytime I read these arguments they are genuinely funny. So, stop picking on people Jancivil.. :nutter:
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3619 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:49 pm

Here is the thing. Some people think they can supplant experience or talent with knowledge and quite frankly that's impossible. A little bit of talent can wither on the vine quickly if it's not nurtured through practice and understanding.

I've seen quite a number of people with some potential who haven't gone anywhere musically because they are so obsessed with what little skills they have that they refuse to advance them thru dedication to the instrument.

I've also seen people with very little talent at the beginning persevere with dedication and practice who play and write to their fullest potential because they have the dedication to make it happen.

Theory is not an ends it's a means. Having theory under your belt doesn't mean you'll be able to do anything. To believe that simply understanding theory will somehow give you the ability to create something is fallacy. Rhythm and emotive expression is not something one can attain by reading a forum post.

Jan and I have wildly different means and equally different ends. The one thing that we share is a dedication to the instrument to the act of physical performance. If you are not willing to commit yourself to the act of making music from a musicians dedication then your time and energies would best be in the pursuit of something else. You don't have to be able to write music to be complete as a person. There are plenty of self actualized adults who have never picked up and instrument and are quite content with themselves and the world around them. Some of them tried and discovered music wasn't for them.

Musicians accept that they are in it for the long haul. And are ready to climb every mountain. They make the time to better their abilities. They accept that not everything they write is going to be perfect first time out. They look for qualities in performance that they can admire and try to emulate. They strive to capture the character of the work instead of simply going through the motions and hoping it will happen.
Trakstar
Banned

Postby Trakstar; Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:32 am

tapper mike wrote:Here is the thing. Some people think they can supplant experience or talent with knowledge and quite frankly that's impossible. A little bit of talent can wither on the vine quickly if it's not nurtured through practice and understanding.

I've seen quite a number of people with some potential who haven't gone anywhere musically because they are so obsessed with what little skills they have that they refuse to advance them thru dedication to the instrument.

I've also seen people with very little talent at the beginning persevere with dedication and practice who play and write to their fullest potential because they have the dedication to make it happen.

Theory is not an ends it's a means. Having theory under your belt doesn't mean you'll be able to do anything. To believe that simply understanding theory will somehow give you the ability to create something is fallacy. Rhythm and emotive expression is not something one can attain by reading a forum post.

Jan and I have wildly different means and equally different ends. The one thing that we share is a dedication to the instrument to the act of physical performance. If you are not willing to commit yourself to the act of making music from a musicians dedication then your time and energies would best be in the pursuit of something else. You don't have to be able to write music to be complete as a person. There are plenty of self actualized adults who have never picked up and instrument and are quite content with themselves and the world around them. Some of them tried and discovered music wasn't for them.

Musicians accept that they are in it for the long haul. And are ready to climb every mountain. They make the time to better their abilities. They accept that not everything they write is going to be perfect first time out. They look for qualities in performance that they can admire and try to emulate. They strive to capture the character of the work instead of simply going through the motions and hoping it will happen.


I ADMIT IT, I was told (I am not being nasty I just dont who the person is, (I mean he or she to refer to), so Ill go with He,) by him about various things and they are all absolutely true, I know a few things about chords and scales, but a pittance when compared to Jancivil. So naturally I assumed I knew enough to answer the "Why do we have scales Forum", what I know is satisfactory for me to write music as good as any other, but likewise I desire the knowledge as well as theory( I have the practise) in order to be able to write really deep pieces of music instead of the shallow 1 bassline, 1 chord, 1 drum beat, few shitty effects and 1 fill crap that you hear on the radio everyday with some nob telling you how hard they are and they will shoot you if you mess with them. The day I reach someones ability like Jancivils I will be a happy fellow, so I actually do have a deep respect there( :-o :-o :-o).
So, tis the learning books for me. When I first started Tapper Mike, I took everything way too personally, and you just have to realize who the people are and read into their posts more to get a good idea of who they are. I find KVR a very peculiar but extremely funny place and without all the Vurts, Jancivils, kriminals, Trickyloops, Bluedads, and all the others who names I cant remember it would be extremely dull. I currenty am having fun by answering posts with just a confused emoticon to wind people up but it does make me laugh. At the minute its tricky loops but I have been looking for new targets, Hmmmm
Last edited by Trakstar on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
PreviousNext

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Music Theory