Where is Brad?

[TiUser]

Hi Folks.

The lack of comments from Brad - the develloper of Cantabile - in this forum isn't a great thing I note.

I start losing hope that there will come anything new with Cantabile...

[humphrey]

Hi,

I agree. Some time before last live sign of brad there was a situation when he explained his position (another job with high priority) and the promise to be back when this was finished and he really did. This was accetable as there was a perspective for me. Then the first impressions of additional features in cantabile 3 looked really promising to me. Everything fine so far.

But now it's like TiUser described it: it seems brad isn't interested into further developments in cantabile.

To be honest: I understand the position of a one man company. Many of them can't be handled as a profit center of their own and the developer has to work on other projects to make the money for the daily needs.

On the other hand a pice of software has to be cared for (specially if we talk about host) and here I have the problem: for me (and others here might see it completely differnt) there are some urgent updates to do in cantable (extended routing and trigger features for sub sessions, fix for external audio sources / outputs). Besides it's also a question of beeing save for the future. Hosts like cantabile are used on stage and the host is a sort of data base for a bunch of songs developed over the years. So it's essential to have a host that's "future save" which means: permanent care.

Please don't misunderstand: Cantabile still is a great piece of software but forte as main competitor made up with the last update and has solutions for the aspects I described and - the developer is there all the time!!

So my decision is to go back to forte (for the moment).

regards, humphrey

[X2]

edit

[TiUser]

To be honest: I understand the position of a one man company. Many of them can't be handled as a profit center of their own and the developer has to work on other projects to make the money for the daily needs.
regards, humphrey

I guess that's a main problem with live music software. Many small companies or single developers doing some stuff which often does not really pay back. Intensive support for such specialized products is needed but hardly adjusts in any way for the develloper.

However I agree that players assets are the arrangements and setups that are created over the years.

As being myself a non professional I would even go a step further than setting up stuff for a show. I'm personally more thinking in the repertoire category.

I am thinking about a solution for this for many years. I've also written some software to see how far one can get - without very special knowledge in audio processing. It's a challenge at best...

It's also difficult to find the right balance between a feature set that can do everything technically but is a nighmare to setup and maintain in daily use. That's in my opinion also one of the problems live host developers face.

I personally start to think a more traditional mixer structure is more appropriate for live purposes than an audio structure that can route anything to everywhere. Instead and for good reason HW live mixers are basically separate channels, providing some insert effects, a mixing buss and master effects.

Concerning sound selection - well I am mad about fast and seamless sound transition - there is simply no solution for live needs that is simple to operate while flexible at the same time.

I'm experimenting with a virtual sound module concept in my software. This is all sound generating resources (internal soundfont based, midi hw and vsti based) are treated the same way. Then you simply assign a sound to the channel you want to play - any sound... routing to the module is automatic. Operation wise this is what I was looking for for long - implementation wise there are ton's of details I struggle with, not to mention that hosting plugins is a nightmare and I guess I will never get to a point like Cantabile performs.

Concerning marketability - it's really hard to bring something to life that is somewhat complete and does not need steady maintenance.

[pinkcanaru]

I think a VST plugin version of Cantabile could do wonders. Yes, a traditional DAW can host plugins, but Cantabile makes you want to PLAY them.
So if something like that underwrites the standalone version I would really encourage its development.
There is so much to commend Cantabile and I've now invested enough time in it to make things work which I previously thought impossible. I'm looking for some organizational tools to neaten up the laundry lists which appear in the MRT, a more obvious routing system - and maybe some window layout memories and key commands freely assignable to Cantabile's functions.
After that, just wanna play.
I hope Brad makes a reappearance soon. I still like Cantabile a lot.

[TiUser]

but Cantabile makes you want to PLAY them.

Exactly that's the bottleneck Cantabile fills.

Howecer I've noticed a lot of lacks in VST plugins itself that discredit them from being used live in an easy way... Spiking cpu on patch changes is just the beginning of my personal story...

I guess cantabile as VST is something that will never happen - also I understand the desire for it.

Still hard to get is an arranger keyboard emulation in software that really works great - and nothing even supporting vsti in a really usable fashion... My own software will probably need some more years to mature and will never be a match in vst hosing to Cantabile...

Time for HW is not really gone...

[pinkcanaru]

I have worked around the patch issue in the following ways:
1. Not all VST cause CPU spikes that can compromise performance - so, use patch changes on those only.
2. Use more instantiations of a given plug in. Modern laptops can host enough RAM to make this easy enough and obviate patch changes.
3. Multitimbral plugins can hold enough presets for a given song - all one needs to switch is the routing - no spikes there.

I'm using Cantabile live on some heavyweight gigs and 2 X Halion 4, 4 x Synth1, 2 x Omnisphere, 2 x Trilian, 1 x VB3, 1 x Mr Ray 73 and a few FX gets me the most powerful live rig I have ever had. I have happily retired all my hardware.

Which plugins are particularly problematic for you TiUser?

[TiUser]

I have worked around the patch issue in the following ways:
1. Not all VST cause CPU spikes that can compromise performance - so, use patch changes on those only.
2. Use more instantiations of a given plug in. Modern laptops can host enough RAM to make this easy enough and obviate patch changes.
3. Multitimbral plugins can hold enough presets for a given song - all one needs to switch is the routing - no spikes there.

Hi!
First of all it's interesing that you mention things I have thought of myself. I think dynamic patch change is one of the most delicate thing in live hosting scenarios... It's not that particular problems can't be worked around - I am talking in general here. Managing these shortcomings is a matter of experience, stuff always to remember and most unpleasing additional effort.

ad 1)
You are right that not all plugins spike on patch change - did I say that?

ad 2)
Yes, one can use more instances of the same plugin.

However switching sounds without loading a plugin for every sound can be tricky. There is not automatic behavior for that. If you can remember back a longer time I suggeted a kind of "double buffer" strategy already, means the sound is changed on a second "buffered" plugin (probably processed outside the audio cycles until sound change has been completed) - so sound changes can also be smoother as the front plugin can release naturally...

Additionally some plugins need cpu even when not played. Yes, in Cantabile you can suspend these, but unfortunately some need time to come back on reactivation (again spiking risk too), so you change cpu devil to restart belzebub...

ad3)
Using multitimbral assignments is a variation of method 2 and can be even more complicated. I guess you refer to simply muting/unmuting parts here.


Finally these ideas all focus on "songs", probably a more or less static songlist sequence and between songs there may be a pause - to load other stuff when needed, right?

Don't misunderstand, your ideas and workaround practices are all fine.

Just what I am after is more than that... instant random access. A SW solution that closely behaves like a HW instrument - or surpasses it in terms of smooth sound transition, as even most HW cuts sound on transitions... Additionally I hate the overhead and different treatment of external midi HW and internal plugins. All that should best work without taking care of speciallities of plugin behaviour or HW/SW - a basic initial description of module type and behaviour should do. This separation would also help sharing knowledge how to treat certain sound generators best - while people not interested in it can use and benefit from experiences others collected in their setups. I know I am obsessed by this - but I also know that if there is any solution for that no musician will accept the previous state and workarounds any more...

[pinkcanaru]

ad3)
Using multitimbral assignments is a variation of method 2 and can be even more complicated. I guess you refer to simply muting/unmuting parts here.

More like muting/unmuting the routings, but muting.unmuting parts could be viable too.

[pchanez]

Hi,

So my decision is to go back to forte (for the moment).

regards, humphrey

I also had to convince myself to go to Forte ... even if this represent a lot of work to transfer my stuffs

[pinkcanaru]

What's the number one thing Forte converts miss about Cantabile?

[humphrey]

My personal view:

1) Possibility of keeping sample content of samlers in RAM when changing scenes WITHOUT the limitations of Sub Sessions. Forte is able to handle all the routing things in a simple way. This leads to change times in the area of 100-200ms.

2) Audio Routing working: I'm able to implement my external hardware equipment (3-4 Soundmodules & Reverb) without a problem.

Both is possible without any tricks, no need for implementation of lots of routings, etc. as workarounds.

One general thing (but this is definitely a question of personal taste): the surface of forte is more easy to look through for me which leads to a better workflow.

Additionally Scene View 2: in my eyes a good solution for stage use (used for songnames, notes, scores,...) & virtual MIDI Ports (which is very useful for me as I partely use the same laptop with the band and at home with different keyboards).

Last not least: Mike (developer of forte) is permanently there and cares and I'm convinced there is a future for forte, Brad is...??, cantabiles future: ??

regards, humphrey

[TiUser]

1) Possibility of keeping sample content of samlers in RAM when changing scenes WITHOUT the limitations of Sub Sessions. Forte is able to handle all the routing things in a simple way. This leads to change times in the area of 100-200ms.
...

Just to comment on this - keeping samples in ram is not the future IMHO - direct disk streaming from a fast disk like SSD is. I wonder why DDS isn't propagated - as it is an old hat technology wise. Preinstalled sample libs shipped on SSD would also be much more convenient than install orgies of hours to put sample content from DVD's onto your HD - then loading them into ram when needed...

Most ridiculous: Roland Integra-7, a hardware sound module where you need to load up the wanted sample libraries first - what a progress...

[humphrey]

Hi TiUser,

just to clearify: I see it as the customer/user (and not as a developer, tech freak,...) and my needs in the aspect "samplers" are just:

1) I want to use samples on stage
2) Change times between scenes (sets, songs, or whatever they are called) should be as short as I experience them on a workstation.

I don't really care for the technology that will be anabling this, I don't care if it is done by preloading, DDS, or whatever: if fits my needs best I will use it.

And the situation at the moment is: forte is the solution coming nearest to this. It's as simple as this...

regards, humphrey

[Ginsonic]

BTW: http://twitter.com/toptensoftware/statu ... 8358588416