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Analog Modeling: What is actually being modeled?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

User avatar
Sendy
KVRAF
 
4423 posts since 20 Jul, 2010

Postby Sendy; Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:23 am

I'm waiting for the synth that is not only component-modelled but also models the universe that the synth is in. After all, if you're going to have drift caused by heat variance, those variations have to come from somewhere, and you can only get the true picture on what the temperature "should" be by modelling the entire universe, because of the butterfly effect :hihi:

Give it another 300 years and we'll be there. Hopefully someone will also make a model of ME so I can come back to life and enjoy these synths :wink:
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp!
AdmiralQuality
KVRAF
 
6409 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada

Postby AdmiralQuality; Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:27 pm

We model the individual quarks, gluons, and leptons and then let God sort it out.

;)
Benutzername
KVRist
 
213 posts since 23 Jan, 2008, from Hamburg, Germany

Postby Benutzername; Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:47 pm

AdmiralQuality wrote:We model the individual quarks, gluons, and leptons and then let God sort it out.

;)


And I know, what he will say: "It needs more warmth..."
User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
 
1834 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:13 pm

Korg calls their stuff CMT. Component Modeling Technology. So, does that mean the MS-20, PolySix, et al, are literally modeled at the component level?
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
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ccDuckett
KVRist
 
199 posts since 14 Jun, 2011, from Earth

Postby ccDuckett; Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:16 am

I am very grateful for this thread- reasonable, honest discussion that is helpful for someone like me who understands juuust enough of the technical aspects to be interested, and to have wondered about this myself, but not enough to do anything more than hope fine folks like yourselves would sidestep the hyperbole and dumb it down for me ;)

Re: Korg's "Component Modeling Technology":

Using ccDuckett's proprietary, exclusive Three Capitalized Words™ method,
this reply faithfully simulates virtual analog marketing ad-copy down to the level of the actual buzzwords used in the original campaigns, for a truly accurate recreation of the classics!
User avatar
Urs
u-he
 
17234 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:40 am

Well, Korg is a good example. Next to no-one has a model of the MS-20 filter. I believe that's because there's no intuitive match in digital filter theory. Biquads, ladders, svfs and such don't get you there, as one integrator is also a differentiator.

OTOH it's simple enough to understand from the component side. If one understands how they interact, one can put a match in code, without ever reading a book on bilinear transforms.

That IMHO is component modeling.
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
 
3618 posts since 16 Dec, 2002, from over there

Postby VariKusBrainZ; Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:57 am

Urs wrote:Well, Korg is a good example. Next to no-one has a model of the MS-20 filter. I believe that's because there's no intuitive match in digital filter theory. Biquads, ladders, svfs and such don't get you there, as one integrator is also a differentiator.

OTOH it's simple enough to understand from the component side. If one understands how they interact, one can put a match in code, without ever reading a book on bilinear transforms.

That IMHO is component modeling.


The Drop does MS20
User avatar
Urs
u-he
 
17234 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:01 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:The Drop does MS20

Yep, Diva too. Hence next to no-one ;)
AdmiralQuality
KVRAF
 
6409 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada

Postby AdmiralQuality; Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:05 am

Here's a tidbit.

Poly-Ana contains no Pi.

(Okay, well, it does, but only in the graphics code for the knobs. Not in the audio code.)

All the mathematicians will want to bring Pi into it. But Poly-Ana doesn't know Pi. Pi HAPPENS... but not because she is aware of it. Just because, at some level, it's a simulation of real world physics. A DRASTIC OVERSIMPLIFICATION, sure, but still, a simulation.

Don't tell her though. Poly thinks she's a real girl!
Kriminal
KVRAF
 
18498 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from England

Postby Kriminal; Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:15 am

Urs wrote:
VariKusBrainZ wrote:The Drop does MS20

Yep, Diva too. Hence next to no-one ;)


...and Screamer.
Dont Upset The Drama Queens
v1o
KVRian
 
600 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:13 am

AXP wrote:earlevel,

To give an example, Fender amps with embedded digital modelling are still running on Motorola's DSP56... chips using a look-up tables for all the tone stack coefficients. And Line 6's and Digitech's guitar processors are using a chain of n*[biquad] - [static waveshaper] - m*[biquad] to model every kind of real-world amps.

Getting down to the component detail is more of a scientific than a real market-driven interest.


Just out of curiosity. I thought Softube did the DSP for Fender products? Aren't Softube known for their meticulous component level circuit modelling approach.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
AXP
KVRist
 
84 posts since 24 Mar, 2012

Postby AXP; Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:58 am

v1o wrote:
AXP wrote:earlevel,

To give an example, Fender amps with embedded digital modelling are still running on Motorola's DSP56... chips using a look-up tables for all the tone stack coefficients. And Line 6's and Digitech's guitar processors are using a chain of n*[biquad] - [static waveshaper] - m*[biquad] to model every kind of real-world amps.

Getting down to the component detail is more of a scientific than a real market-driven interest.


Just out of curiosity. I thought Softube did the DSP for Fender products? Aren't Softube known for their meticulous component level circuit modelling approach.


Yes they did a digital preamp design for Marshall, feedback pedal for Fender, NI has a line of virtual analog equipment powered by their DSP and their own products are just brilliant. Of course they claim to have a component level circuit modelling, just as everyone else does. But then you look at US8165309 (
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8165309.pdf) and... well, I'm not suggesting anything :)

And while we're on it, here's an old patent by Line6:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5789689.pdf
AXP
KVRist
 
84 posts since 24 Mar, 2012

Postby AXP; Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:04 am

v1o wrote:
AXP wrote:earlevel,

To give an example, Fender amps with embedded digital modelling are still running on Motorola's DSP56... chips using a look-up tables for all the tone stack coefficients. And Line 6's and Digitech's guitar processors are using a chain of n*[biquad] - [static waveshaper] - m*[biquad] to model every kind of real-world amps.

Getting down to the component detail is more of a scientific than a real market-driven interest.


Just out of curiosity. I thought Softube did the DSP for Fender products? Aren't Softube known for their meticulous component level circuit modelling approach.


Oh, and by the way I was talking about the old Fender Cyber Twin, not the latest stuff.
User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
 
1834 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:31 am

This has been interesting. Thanks for everyone's contributions.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
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Ichad.c
KVRian
 
691 posts since 8 Feb, 2012, from South - Africa

Postby Ichad.c; Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:35 am

Urs wrote:Well, Korg is a good example. Next to no-one has a model of the MS-20 filter.


And no-one has a Polivoks model either :shrug:

No capacitors.

The dual saw bass - is the meanest thing I've heard from an analog.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul10/a ... saudio.htm
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