Oh yeah, this turd
What a bunch of wankers.
nevermind
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
It was just a thread to vent about my poor timing, n/m
Oh yeah, this turd
What a bunch of wankers.
Oh yeah, this turd
What a bunch of wankers.
Last edited by hibidy on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 2750 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from Raincoast of Grayland
According to my drummer buddy, metronomes can't keep time very well. They just don't have the 'feel' for it. 
perception: the stuff reality is made of.
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- Pick Me Pick me!
- 10263 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion
How is he wrong.. you just proved him correct. He said a metronome will mess with your sense of timing if you've never used one.
Probably more due to having an internal sense of timing and having to break out of that sense...
It would be interesting though to see what happens to a child who takes up lessons from day one using a metronome... I suspect it will not impair their ability to sense timing while playing. Consider the issue a bad habit that is hard to break.
Probably more due to having an internal sense of timing and having to break out of that sense...
It would be interesting though to see what happens to a child who takes up lessons from day one using a metronome... I suspect it will not impair their ability to sense timing while playing. Consider the issue a bad habit that is hard to break.
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- Banned
- 147 posts since 4 Feb, 2012 from Carolina Beach
While I never forbid any of my students the use of a metronome during the years I was an active and busy teacher, I never pushed it, either, and I don't believe I ever suggested it. There is a problem with metronomes that is practically nonexistent in playing along to previously recorded music to develop a good sense of time.
Playing with a metronome is exactly like always playing to music that has been severely quantized to never ever play off the exact beat, and this can go down as finely as possible, to 1/64s or similarly precise as we subdivide.
The problem is, as was hinted at, is that ONLY robots play music this way. All humans insert 'feel,' certain humanisations and off-timings, off-beats no matter how 'On' they attempt to be. You had better learn to play both AS a human and learn to play well WITH humans, or you may as well just hang it up right now. So . . . I know Berlin's thoughts on this and he is correct. No need to watch the above -- he is very vocal about his opinions and has covered them extensively.
Playing with a metronome is exactly like always playing to music that has been severely quantized to never ever play off the exact beat, and this can go down as finely as possible, to 1/64s or similarly precise as we subdivide.
The problem is, as was hinted at, is that ONLY robots play music this way. All humans insert 'feel,' certain humanisations and off-timings, off-beats no matter how 'On' they attempt to be. You had better learn to play both AS a human and learn to play well WITH humans, or you may as well just hang it up right now. So . . . I know Berlin's thoughts on this and he is correct. No need to watch the above -- he is very vocal about his opinions and has covered them extensively.
Last edited by The Telenator on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- Banned
- 9890 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
our drummer plays to a click and he's the only drummer I've played along with whose timing never slowed or sped up.
however, i agree as far as i'm concerned, that metronomes suck for time keeping, give me a drum machine or computer tyvm, THOSE things have helped my timing.
different strokes
however, i agree as far as i'm concerned, that metronomes suck for time keeping, give me a drum machine or computer tyvm, THOSE things have helped my timing.
different strokes
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- Banned
- 9890 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
eh, he (JB) didn't really say that. he said MUSIC has always been about feel AND learning music has always been learning the notes first, out of time. btw, i only had to watch for about a minute to know i totally agreed AND glean that information.hibidy wrote:mandolarian wrote:According to my drummer buddy, metronomes can't keep time very well. They just don't have the 'feel' for it.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
I see my humor is lost on youth yet again..........VitaminD wrote:How is he wrong?
Ok we'll turn this all serious. My timing is nearly useless when trying to record lately, which I (in my wisdom) thought I could turn into a joke concerning Jeff Berlin. Guess not
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
what's the difference in "robotedness" between a click track and a drum machine? (speaking hardware, not software) I'll be the first to say my timing is far from perfect, I also do not quantize my drum tracks to beats anymore (not the case on any of my posted music). But I also shy away from live drummers for a good reason, even when it's very good friends.
I play fast, which again I will be the first to admit was about insecurity in my youth but I have met few drummers who can hold the tempo when playing with me and at least one was only able to because of a strong bass player (another was just a human metronome). It's almost like a race with some drummers, I speed up (not tempo, just my playing) and they I guess feed off that and speed up too which throws me way off. Of course a lot of this was during a time that coke played a major role as well.
The thing is now I have played with drum machines, click tracks and sequencers far more than with decent drummers. I often record an idea with a metronome, open jamstix and design my parts around my recorded riff then I will redo the guitar part..often many times. The odd thing is often I find myself forgetting to shut off the click track...sometimes for days.
I dont see how a click track must make robotic music, it can but not all of us are so perfect that we are in absolute perfect time with a click track. I will go through a piece and quantize the drums to be close to the audio (the same with other midi tracks), for instance if the guitar or bass is a little ahead of the beat I'll quantize the drums similar but not precise. It depends which drum I'm adjusting as to whether it's the bass or guitar I quantize to. For instance a kick or snare will be close with the bass but a hi hat beat often will be more synced to the guitar (trust me, I zoom way in for this and I'm talking very tiny variations)
I guess I'll just never be that good so as to be able to play perfectly synced to a click track...I'm still only human whether what's keeping the beat is or not...but I'm quite use to and very comfortable playing to a click track for which I am thankful and think it's a big help
I play fast, which again I will be the first to admit was about insecurity in my youth but I have met few drummers who can hold the tempo when playing with me and at least one was only able to because of a strong bass player (another was just a human metronome). It's almost like a race with some drummers, I speed up (not tempo, just my playing) and they I guess feed off that and speed up too which throws me way off. Of course a lot of this was during a time that coke played a major role as well.
The thing is now I have played with drum machines, click tracks and sequencers far more than with decent drummers. I often record an idea with a metronome, open jamstix and design my parts around my recorded riff then I will redo the guitar part..often many times. The odd thing is often I find myself forgetting to shut off the click track...sometimes for days.
I dont see how a click track must make robotic music, it can but not all of us are so perfect that we are in absolute perfect time with a click track. I will go through a piece and quantize the drums to be close to the audio (the same with other midi tracks), for instance if the guitar or bass is a little ahead of the beat I'll quantize the drums similar but not precise. It depends which drum I'm adjusting as to whether it's the bass or guitar I quantize to. For instance a kick or snare will be close with the bass but a hi hat beat often will be more synced to the guitar (trust me, I zoom way in for this and I'm talking very tiny variations)
I guess I'll just never be that good so as to be able to play perfectly synced to a click track...I'm still only human whether what's keeping the beat is or not...but I'm quite use to and very comfortable playing to a click track for which I am thankful and think it's a big help
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
Since we've gone all serious, for me I used to have good timing. Funny, when I'm in the mood to play bass, I can keep time pretty well. But now, lately, even just trying to program a god damned DRUM LOOP my timing is WAY off. Oh, it's bad. If I wasn't old and angry, I'd feel the need to work on my timing. Ugggg,Hink wrote:what's the difference in "robotedness" between a click track and a drum machine? (speaking hardware, not software) I'll be the first to say my timing is far from perfect, I also do not quantize my drum tracks to beats anymore (not the case on any of my posted music). But I also shy away from live drummers for a good reason, even when it's very good friends.
I play fast, which again I will be the first to admit was about insecurity in my youth but I have met few drummers who can hold the tempo when playing with me and at least one was only able to because of a strong bass player (another was just a human metronome). It's almost like a race with some drummers, I speed up (not tempo, just my playing) and they I guess feed off that and speed up too which throws me way off. Of course a lot of this was during a time that coke played a major role as well.
The thing is now I have played with drum machines, click tracks and sequencers far more than with decent drummers. I often record an idea with a metronome, open jamstix and design my parts around my recorded riff then I will redo the guitar part..often many times. The odd thing is often I find myself forgetting to shut off the click track...sometimes for days.
I dont see how a click track must make robotic music, it can but not all of us are so perfect that we are in absolute perfect time with a click track. I will go through a piece and quantize the drums to be close to the audio (the same with other midi tracks), for instance if the guitar or bass is a little ahead of the beat I'll quantize the drums similar but not precise. It depends which drum I'm adjusting as to whether it's the bass or guitar I quantize to. For instance a kick or snare will be close with the bass but a hi hat beat often will be more synced to the guitar (trust me, I zoom way in for this and I'm talking very tiny variations)
I guess I'll just never be that good so as to be able to play perfectly synced to a click track...I'm still only human whether what's keeping the beat is or not...but I'm quite use to and very comfortable playing to a click track for which I am thankful and think it's a big help
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- Banned
- 81 posts since 22 Nov, 2012
Love Jeff Berlin, so he must be right! And he IS, of course. But then again, there's never only one way and one way only....
Fact is that even music in which real drummers are playing, has changed since the popularization of the computer. All drummers now learn to play to the click, so much timing magic has been lost.
Jazz players know that good players play around the click. Latin players will make a die-hard metronome player eventually bite the dust. Lots of the great rock drummers from before the rise of the computer will be found to move their downbeats around quite a bit, and/or rushing, slowing down, etc..., but THAT's exactly what made their playing so exciting!
So what's a starting musician to do with this knowledge? Answer: learn to play with as well as without a metronome, and where the difference counts.
A very useful tip is to have the metronome click only on the afterbeat, i.e. on the 2 and the 4. This way you can play around with the downbeats. Timing an afterbeat in a sloppy way is about the most unforgiving thing that can be done, but the downbeats can be moved around quite a bit, strangely enough. Still, even an afterbeat can be laid down with a slight delay, which will make it laid-back.
If you're using a PC as a metronome to play along, then leave out the kick
Fact is that even music in which real drummers are playing, has changed since the popularization of the computer. All drummers now learn to play to the click, so much timing magic has been lost.
Jazz players know that good players play around the click. Latin players will make a die-hard metronome player eventually bite the dust. Lots of the great rock drummers from before the rise of the computer will be found to move their downbeats around quite a bit, and/or rushing, slowing down, etc..., but THAT's exactly what made their playing so exciting!
So what's a starting musician to do with this knowledge? Answer: learn to play with as well as without a metronome, and where the difference counts.
A very useful tip is to have the metronome click only on the afterbeat, i.e. on the 2 and the 4. This way you can play around with the downbeats. Timing an afterbeat in a sloppy way is about the most unforgiving thing that can be done, but the downbeats can be moved around quite a bit, strangely enough. Still, even an afterbeat can be laid down with a slight delay, which will make it laid-back.
If you're using a PC as a metronome to play along, then leave out the kick