KVR Audio

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Wed May 08, 2013 7:54 pm

Hello!

I know it's a question that comes up over and over again. I have been through other threads and I am still not quite sure what to do.

My situation is as follows: I own a Maya44e. In fact I am not extremely unhappy with it, but since I found out that the input (Mic/Line) is broken, I have to get a replacement. Now you could say it's easy and just replace it with a newer Maya44XTe.

But I've already been thinking about an audio solution from RME for a long time now and I have repeatedly checked out the HDSPe AIO.
What is holding me back from the HDSPe AIO is the fact that it doesn't seem to have a phantom powered +48V input for my microphone. To me, it looks like the most attractive audio solution when it comes to low latency. Would you go for that one and get an additional microphone preamp? But that makes it a quite expensive solution compared to the Ladyface for example. Not to mention the Maya44XTe.

My concern about the
Ladyface is that I found out it has a worse latency than the Maya44e on the paper. Yes, it's just milliseconds, but 5ms and 13ms already make a difference in terms of real time keyboarding. 13ms make it already impossible to play live. This is the latency difference when I change the Maya44e from 256 to 512 samples.

I know the sound quality of the RMEs compared to the Maya44XTe is on different levels.

Now, is an RME card capable of handling more VSTi than a Maya44XTe without crackling/audio drop outs at the same sample settings respectively when they both have about the same latency time? Are 5ms latency on an RME the same 5ms that I have on a Maya44XTe or do the RME drivers for example behave better, thus giving a better performance?

If I go for the HDSPe AIO, what microphone preamp would you suggest (price definitley is a concern here) and would I need something extra to connect it to the standard retail HDSPe AIO?

And yes, the Ladyface has the portability the other two cards don't have. But that's not so important to me since I never travel with equipment (maybe I'd do if I had it, though). But that's not what's important to me. What matters to me is how much more power can I expect from a HDSPe AIO over the Ladyface in my environment (i7 Hexacore CPU, 32GB RAM, Cubase 7, Win8)? I only use VSTi and a microphone.

Finally, my computer has no standard PCI board which takes other PCI based cards out of the competition.

I'd be happy if owners of those devices with enough experience with other lower cost audio solutions would tell me what they think.

In fact, if the HDSPe AIO had +48V phantom power, it would have saved me from opening this thread.

Thank you.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Thu May 09, 2013 6:31 am

I have the PCI version HDSP 9632 of HDSP AIO. And I added AI4S for extra inputs, totalling 6 analog in and 2 analog out of linelevel.

I run at 64 samples, making total roundtrip latency 5ms. That is the latency to look for if monitoring through daw software.

I can run at 32 samples too, it's all about how soon you want to start freezing tracks to remove cpu load.

But cannot compare anything to Maya.

Look at Focusrite OctaPre and connect over ADAT.
Preamps are excellent for that money.

I needed more than 55dB gain for a mike I have, so I went for a now discontinued Focusrite TwinTrak Pro(it has 60dB gain), but just 2 channels.

RME internal cards has always been troublefree for me. Zero cpu to keep audio up(usb and firewire will always use up 4-8% or so just keeping audio up).
I used on my old daw on XP as well.

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Thu May 09, 2013 6:51 pm

Thanks for your feedback.

I actually only need one single Microphone input and I doubt I will ever need more than one. So the Octopre II is a bit too much for my needs. Unfortunately I can't find the TwinTrak here.

The Maya44e I currently use has a Latency of 1.451ms @ 64 samples/44100kHz. This makes me wonder about the 5ms you have. I have 5.805ms @ 256 samples/44100 which leaves me to use plenty of tracks without freezing. I thought the HDSPe AIO must be better than that?!

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Sat May 11, 2013 9:29 pm

I'm sorry, but this board's spam filter is horrible. I can't post a normal text without getting the spam alert

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun May 12, 2013 8:06 am

Japanese wrote:Thanks for your feedback.

I actually only need one single Microphone input and I doubt I will ever need more than one. So the Octopre II is a bit too much for my needs. Unfortunately I can't find the TwinTrak here.

The Maya44e I currently use has a Latency of 1.451ms @ 64 samples/44100kHz. This makes me wonder about the 5ms you have. I have 5.805ms @ 256 samples/44100 which leaves me to use plenty of tracks without freezing. I thought the HDSPe AIO must be better than that?!

You must get the difference of latency one way and roundtrip latency. If to monitor through the daw roundtrip is what matters - basically adding in and out latency - not only buffers, but what card reports to host which include possible delay through hardware like A/D converters etc.

I run a RME Hammerfall 9636 on my former daw, this pc I'm writing this from, and setting 64 samples and 48KHz I get 2x1.3ms=2.6ms roundtrip.

The RME HDSP 9632 is also PCI card, meaning not the latest technology like PCI Express. There I get 5ms roundtrip 64 samples/48K which I run. But I also have an addon board with 4 extra inputs that might take extra samples, I don't know.

The HDSP AIO is a PCI Express card, so you must have such a slot in computer. If there is lower latency I really don't know.

Either of these cases are latency levels that is below what start to get a problem - like above 10ms roundtrip, then it might be noticable to ear when playing live through daw software.

So I would not focus on latency if higher that Maya and thereby conclude it's worse soundcard if having higher latency. If you can get <10ms roundtrip either case you are fine.

I mentioned TwinTrak but also said it's discontinued - meaning it's not manufactured anymore(since 4-5 years back). Look at your wallet what you want to spend - and then look at options. I started looking at Focusrite channelstrips and found Twintrak at the time filling my needs with two channels.

Focusrite ISA One is often mentioned as really good preamp, but it is one channel and cost more than OctaPre.

Mackie Onyx series preamps are also really good preamps for the money. You could look at BlackJack, which is an interface, but just use preamps.

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Fri May 17, 2013 9:28 pm

I bought the HDSPe AIO and a dbx 286S. This surely is not the best combination, but it was within my budget at this time.

What can I say? Everything works fine. But I also have to point out that the pure VSTi-performance of the Maya44e is better, which really surprises me. The newer Juli@XTe is said to be even better than the Maya44e. I didn't have the chance to try the Maya44e with external audio signal properly which is why I don't give a feedback on this.

But I also have to say that the sound quality of the RME is superb. It may be just imagination, but I think there's more detail compared to the Maya44e even if you only use VSTi.

I may be buying an additional Juli@XTe later just to have the option to run more VSTi real time with lower latencies. I'm not sure if RME can perform faster with future drivers. We will see.

Finally, USB audio solutions wouldn't do it for me, I'm sure. I'm not regularly freezing tracks as it affects my workflow.

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:59 pm

@lfm

Thank you for sharing your experience

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Sun May 19, 2013 3:07 am

I just wonder if there's something I missed out?

I use Cubase 7.0.4 and said dbx286S with the HDSPe AIO. When I listen to the microphone audio which is connected to the HDSPe's analog input, it feels like there is 1/8 second of delay to the actual voice. I find it difficult to record something as it gives me a "sticky" feeling.

I don't recognize a difference between different buffer sizes (32 vs 256). This is really disappointing if this is normal. Besides, the live audio sounds somewhat like there's a chorus/very short echo effect there on the headphones. The recording afterwards is OK.

Thanks for any feedback.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun May 19, 2013 7:19 am

I don't know Cubase - but there should absolutely not be any noticable delay if setting to below 128 samples.

Did you see to that ASIO or WDM is used as drivers inside Cubase?

Sometimes default after opening with a new interface is something else like DirectSound or something.

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Sun May 19, 2013 9:50 am

Yes, the driver is set to Hammerfall DSP. Shouldn't be the source of the problem :/

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun May 19, 2013 11:36 am

Japanese wrote:Yes, the driver is set to Hammerfall DSP. Shouldn't be the source of the problem :/

That's the device - but the audio driver - ASIO or WDM?

I just had it many times on MME when first driver was installed. Host may select the first listed driver when starting.

If you then open ASIO panel and make changes - you don't adjust what Cubase is running on - and as you discovered, no change when changing ASIO settings buffer.

With 32 samples roundtrip latency should not be audible - no way.
With 256 start to get audible.

If no change - you are not running on ASIO.

Just checking...

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Sun May 19, 2013 4:37 pm

There's only ASIO Hammerfall DSP, so it is set to ASIO for sure. There's no latency when playing VSTi, but I can feel the latency when I use the mic. The feeling is not thight. So just imagine you have a very fast text passage, it's just not feeling tight. I hope you get what I mean.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun May 19, 2013 5:19 pm

One thing that might produce delays would be loaded plugins that have latency.

Is it a fresh blank project or full of plugins?
Bypass plugins for a test if this is the case.

I don't know if Cubase shows used PDC as a readout somewhere.

And another thing that come to mind is that Cubase probably has support for ASIO direct monitoring and so does RME - and you should not apply monitoring on track if that is the case. You may get two streams back - one monitored through Cubase and one zero latency through RME which may sound weird.

You have to check manual how that works - I never had an app that support ASIO direct monitoring.

Japanese · Post by **Japanese** » Mon May 20, 2013 2:18 am

I agree on that. I was thinking about this as well, but I was unable to point it out yet.

However, if I disable the microphone input on the track, the mic goes mute. But I think there's some double stream.

Will check the manual. Thanks again for your time.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Mon May 20, 2013 8:18 am

You're welcome.

Also look at RME Totalmix, there is some setting regarding direct monitoring(or what they call it).

Talk RME support as well, they are really helpful people. They know Cubase for sure.

Maya44XTe vs. RME Ladyface vs. RME HDSPe AIO