What is the best... way to jam?

[eidetic]

Hello,

I'm interested in creating a virtual/digital setup where I can just jam/noodle with some synths and was wondering if anyone had any good pointers on the best setup for this. I picture the setup to emulate having a desk full of equipment. Not really interested in putting together full songs - just toying around in my spare time.

Right now my setup consists of d16's products. I have plans to pick up the Korg Legacy collection and, after that, maybe some decent effects. I have a few cheap midi controllers and some tablets for OSC. My big missing component is the host/DAW.

I've played around with Ableton and see how its session view is very beneficial for live performances, but I'm not sure if it fits in with what I'm trying to do. I figure I'd have to have a bunch of pre-recorded patterns to make use of the session view. I'd rather use the synths directly (midi/osc).

I've tried Bidule and got the synths sync'd and playing. I really like Bidule's modularity and might stick with it.

Reaper seems like it'd work great as a VST host but I don't think I'd use any of its other features (at the moment) ... however, for its price, it's still not a bad purchase.

I hope what I'm trying to do makes sense. I'd love to hear of other people's setups or if anyone has any suggestions.

Thanks!

[Tricky-Loops]

Have you tried Usine by Sensomusic?

Just came to my mind because you said "live performance"...and Usine is optimized for live performance...

[eidetic]

Have you tried Usine by Sensomusic?

Just came to my mind because you said "live performance"...and Usine is optimized for live performance...

I haven't, but I just read it over and will definitely try it out! Thanks!

[Wormhelmet]

Are you interested in hardware synths at all? I do the live jam all the time both with and without a DAW. I use Ableton and it works great for live jamming. Just setup the tracks with instruments and setup your routing. I also heavily use Geist for live stuff. I have several hardware synths though too for all this live jam stuff. The synths are all geared toward it. Venom synth - my controller keyboard and a big part of the live jam with easy to setup multi's and splits, an arpeggiator that does drum beat arpeggios.

If no host used, I setup the midi connectivity through Copperlan virtual midi connections. My Venom controls my Waldorf Blofeld and sends system clock to my blofeld, Geist standalone, and also my Aturia minibrute and my modular. Arturia minibrute keys are sending cv and gate to my modular. I also incorporate my iPad with various synths or Beatmaker 2 for live sound stuff.

A lot of triggering and use of latched Arps helps free the hands for quick live passages played or play an arp pattern, latch it, and play drum rhythms on my Korg padKontrol.

Hours and hours of fun and no tedious multitracking to do. Of course I can do the multitracking when I want too, but if I want to capture what I'm noodling, then I plug in my netbook running Audition connected to my secondary mixer outs. Last song I did and put on soundcloud was live jamming with a couple sequenced parts pre-recorded, but a lot of live play involved and captured on my netbook in Audition.

Also if you setup sample loops in Ableton and have a launchpad or similar controller for Ableton, you can just jam your clips and record the entire session right in Ableton including your vst instrument playing. It all comes out tracked in the arrangement view when you're done.

[Wormhelmet]

Thinking about it now, I suppose if you just wanted standalone softsynths that didn't have standalone version, you could run several instances of minihost with various vst's all hooked up by Copperlan virtual midi cables. Just one instrument that sent clock source could send clock to all other instances through Copperlan virtual cables.

Honestly though - session view and midi tracks are really easy to setup for live play in Ableton too. Ableton and Copperlan together with some tablets and controllers is going to be fairly simple to setup once you grasp Copperlan's potential and Abletons easy routing/midi mapping potential.

Think about Geist too. It's easy if you want it to be or really really complex if you want it to be. Since buying Geist, it has become an always used product with my Korg padKontrol on every session I play live or recording sessions too. Like an MPC style machine.

And now that I said machine, that would be my other alternative had I not bought Geist. NI's Maschine. That might be a great choice for live jam stuff. It hosts vst's too which Geist does not. I've seen a lot of videos of live jamming on Maschine.

[eidetic]

Wormhelmet,

wow - thanks for your input.

I'd love some hardware synths, but right now they're out of the question due to cost. I've heard great things about the minibrute and I'd love to get me some Elektron boxes one day. I'm tempted to pick up the Volca line for some cheap hardware synths and create the setup you talk about - hardware as the clock master - but at the same time, I'd rather put the money toward a minibrute or similar.

Re pads and drums: I have a Korg NanoPad2 that I've used with BeatMaker2. I really like the TR/x0x style sequencing which is why I'm sticking to the d16 stuff for now. I can see myself using the NanoPad and BeatMaker (or another MPC-style device) to trigger one-off samples (spoken word, sound effects, etc). Grids of pads never made me think of "rhythm" where I see that in the TR/x0x sequencer right away.

I've looked at Geist previously and I'd love to pick it up when there's a sale going on.

Re Ableton: I'll have to revisit this. Your description of Launchpad to trigger patterns is how I always viewed the session view being used correctly. Since I wasn't planning on having pre-recorded patterns, I feel I'd just be using Ableton as a glorified VST host and maybe there was a better host/DAW to do that. I'm probably totally wrong on that, so I'll try to look up some info on different ways to use the Session view. I have a copy of Ableton 8 Intro, so that'd be good enough to create a small jamming setup.

Re minihost and Copperlan: I'll definitely take a look at Copperlan. I think minihost is Windows only? I'm using a Mac currently but can use Windows if necessary. I don't think any of my current VSTs can act as a clock source, though. Maybe I'm wrong on that - still reading the manuals.

Re external mixer, netbook: A decent audio mixer is something I need to pick up. I'm trying to get things working all on my laptop at the moment, but I can definitely see myself expanding to audio out on an iPad, hardware synth, or effect device.

Thank you very much for this information. The various methods and tools you mentioned give me a lot of things to research!

[Wormhelmet]

Good luck in getting your setup that s right for you. I totally got your post because that's what I love to do too. Had a friend over the other day to check out some stuff. He's very into multitracking and recording bands and thought it was crazy that I don't record everything, but I told him that just playing gives me total freedom and I don't feel the need to churn out songs all the time. I love the spontaneous grooves and just hearing it without getting tedious on recording or sequencing is a great feeling.

[eidetic]

Yes, exactly!

Thank you again - I really appreciate your help.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Right so you are on MAC, I'd definitely checkout Numerology which you can find out all about here: http://www.five12.com/
I'm a Live user on PC and jam ideas out using that along with Pro Tools when in engineering/multitracking mode, I don't use synthesizers much but I've had many a blast at friend's places whom are on MAC and use Numerology along with software synthesizers and/or outboard synthesizers...etc. The other one thing to keep a keen eye on is the software Loomer are working on which sounds ace and like a Numerology beater plus it will run on PC and Linux along with MAC. I don't know when it is due to be released though.

Hope that helps some, All the best

Dean

[eidetic]

Hi Dean,

Numerology definitely looks interesting. I'll check it out - thanks!

[eidetic]

Hello,

I wanted to post an update on this if anyone was curious:

Bidule was fun. I really like how it can be extremely simple - just wiring a few things up. I was disappointed when I started making a TouchOSC layout for Drumazon and noticed that Drumazon was not sending any CC feedback to TouchOSC - for example, if I manually adjusted a knob in Drumazon instead of TouchOSC, TouchOSC did not reflect the new value. I was really disappointed with this and took the opportunity to move on and test other things out.

One reason why I like the idea of d16's stuff is because they include the internal step sequencing. I really wanted to utilize this but came to the conclusion that it's probably not going to be possible. So I broke out of that thinking.

I liked the idea of Numerology. The fact that it's based on step sequencing was really appealing. However, after working with the demo for a bit, I didn't feel that comfortable with it. Mostly, I felt that I needed a Novation Launchpad in order to really use it to its full potential. Its $200 price tag really turned me off, too. I can pick up Ableton second-hand on this forum for that much.

Which brings me to Ableton. I read about LiveControl and gave it a shot. I don't have Lemur, so instead of dropping $50 for it, I used the older TouchOSC version of LiveControl. It's absolutely brilliant. I can create new patterns and then edit them like a step sequencer while the clip continues to loop.

I can load up Drumazon or any other VST in Ableton and enable the various midi inputs on the device. Ableton is able to read the current value regardless of if I set it through Ableton or directly on the VST - this overcomes the knob issue I had. What's incredible is that LiveControl sees these enabled inputs and creates widgets for them dynamically. When I first used LiveControl I thought I'd have to use a second tablet or other hardware just for the midi knobs but when I saw LiveControl takes care of it dynamically, I was seriously impressed.

So at the moment, my setup consists of an iPad with TouchOSC/LiveControl and Ableton running a few VSTs. I can noodle around and come up with a quick acid jam using a 303, 808, and 909.

There are a few quirks with LiveControl. The biggest one is that when I create a new pattern, I have to press "stop" in order to set the length of the pattern. So if I create a new clip then wait 4 bars, it creates a 4 bar pattern. but if I'm too slow or too quick, it might be 3 or 5. For now, I just adjust the pattern directly in Ableton.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Great to read/know that you are up and running that works best for your jams and most of all enjoying yourself That's what its all about eidetic

Best your way

Dean

[tibah]

Nice insides. Since I pretty much *jam* all the time, some input could be useful.

I believe you can jam in any DAW, as long as you know your way around it in an intuitive and fast way. Reason used to be this since I was so used to the workflow, but after switching to Studio One, which you may consider a more traditional DAW, I find it very easy to jam in it too.

First of, all your controller locks stay the same for each instance you open of a specific plug-in. I can easily set my controller to the high-pass on the EQ and have the same knob control the filter on a synth. Then it's just a matter of having the plug-in you want to control in focus.

My other controller is for solo/mute and controlling the faders. Very easy to do a basic mix and bringing elements in and out to make mini arrangements.

The rest is pretty much down to highlight tracks and enable record via the NumPad on my keyboard to play melodies and additional sequences. Then I will just twiddle away. Sometimes I record these bits and sample myself later for a more serious approach to a song or 10 minutes synth noodlings that change and twist and morph between heaven and hell that are a nice source for new material.

[eidetic]

emotica: very interesting, thanks. So you're essentially using a vertical tracklist in the same way as Ableton's session view matrix? Each track is just triggered via a shortcut?

I'm interested in learning Reason as I like its "batteries included" focus: rather than spending time researching various external instruments, I have a set of well built ones to really spend time on and learn. If I'm able to play with loops in real-time and trigger other loops on and off, regardless of how, it's good to know that I can in Reason.

Thanks!

[tibah]

emotica: very interesting, thanks. So you're essentially using a vertical tracklist in the same way as Ableton's session view matrix? Each track is just triggered via a shortcut?

Not exactly. I use it as it is. I work in a *loop*, that I create over time or change completely or set new loop markers for another part and transitions, solo/mute things. This way you can't try combinations like you can do with Ableton Live or trigger clips, but it's how I'm used to it anyway.

Since Reason now got Rack Extensions, it can be as much research about new instruments as anything else, that work within the rack concept of Reason. If you can avoid trying those, you should be fine, otherwise you always could look to get an older version, like 4 or 5.