Bitwig

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:01 pm

I sent a support ticket in two weeks ago, started talking to Dom via email the next day, but then I guess he went on vacation, so now my support ticket has been sitting for 12 days without answer. I sent another email yesterday (my third unanswered) and got an "out of office" autoresponse.

Excerpts of my emails:

I can't play a live set when I can't load new plugins while playing audio. It seemed extremely
strange to me that this should be an issue with BitWig, but it happened consistently so I assumed it was a bug that needs addressing.

I'm on the latest version now and there's still hugely noticeable audio dropouts (and sometimes loud pops) every time I load a synth or effect during playback. Even when its on a completely new track and I'm barely hitting the CPU (currently at 7%) using direct ASIO to my Track16.

This doesn't happen with the other DAWs I've tested, so I assume this is a Bitwig-specific problem. (I own and have checked Ableton Live 9 and Energy XT2, still need to check Studio One and the Renoise demo)

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help track down the issue.

System specs:

CPU: i7-4900MQ (2.8-3.8Ghz quad core)
RAM: 16GB
OS: Windows 8.1 x64
Audio: MOTU Track16
Plugins: Tone2 Gladiator, U-He Zebra, U-He ACE, FabFilter Saturn (all fairly hefty plugins)

Redukt · Post by **Redukt** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:15 pm

Same here - 2 E-Mails in the last 2 months, never heard anything back.

I understand that they have been on their (much deserved) holidays plus they're working on 1.1 now but a little response - even if it's just a "message received but sorry, we're busy, may take a few days/weeks" kind of thing - would have been nice.

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:45 pm

Yeah, try it in Studio One

It actually is unusual to be able to do this at all, some hosts even disable playback when you do.
Even in Live it's not guaranteed to succeed every time.
If you think about it, it's a pretty hefty action: you insert something in a playing realtime audio stream which may change latency and audio routing - where do you put that latency?
Will be interesting if this can be solved for long-latency plugins at all.
(most of not all u-he plugins can be set to zero latency BTW.).

Dom first was ill and now is on vacation for the rest of the week so I can only assume that somehow this created the hickup. If you don't hear back next week, maybe try again with a new ticket (not answering an existing one) so it's getting freshly assigned to one of the other supporters.

Cheers,

Tom

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:07 pm

ThomasHelzle wrote:Yeah, try it in Studio One
It actually is unusual to be able to do this at all, some hosts even disable playback when you do.
Even in Live it's not guaranteed to succeed every time.
If you think about it, it's a pretty hefty action: you insert something in a playing realtime audio stream which may change latency and audio routing - where do you put that latency?
Will be interesting if this can be solved for long-latency plugins at all.
(most of not all u-he plugins can be set to zero latency BTW.).

Dom first was ill and now is on vacation for the rest of the week so I can only assume that somehow this created the hickup. If you don't hear back next week, maybe try again with a new ticket (not answering an existing one) so it's getting freshly assigned to one of the other supporters.

There's a difference. In Ableton there is sometimes a little "click" when I insert a new instruments. On Bitwig it can result in noticeable gaps of silence and loud pops. It's not subtle.

The instruments aren't even playing yet. They should be loaded on a different thread and then patched in once they're fully loaded.

Since plugins in Bitwig are loaded in on sandboxed processes, then there's no reason the audio thread should be blocked. And it's clearly a blocking operation in Bitwig. This is a code-level issue. You need to use non-blocking IPC operations when loading a new plugin, and then only switch to synchronous IO when its fully loaded, and at that point the audio should be at a zero crossing (unless there's a "DC offset" issue with the plugin itself) which can be summed to the audio stream cleanly.

I'm not saying this is trivial, but its certainly not a new concept. I am deducing a bit about your software architecture, so if I'm missing something let me know and I'll rethink it. Just because I'm a software engineer doesn't mean I understand every possible combination of technical restrictions.

That said, as a customer I'd like to be kept in the loop when I enter a support ticket and send multiple follow ups. If its not something you plan on implementing then let me know that too.

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:26 pm

Sorry, I'm not a dev and can't help you with this other than speculating what may be the issue.
Either try again with a fresh ticket or wait until next week when Dom returns.
Hickups happen.

Cheers,

Tom

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:42 pm

ThomasHelzle wrote:Sorry, I'm not a dev and can't help you with this other than speculating what may be the issue.
Either try again with a fresh ticket or wait until next week when Dom returns.
Hickups happen.

Cheers,

Tom

I opened another ticket and I immediately got Dom's vacation responder again. This is not progress.

qtheerearranger · Post by **qtheerearranger** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:04 pm

Very weird cause I file a few feature requests every week and every once and a while a bug report. I always get responses. For instance I emailed them two days ago with three separate feature requests and this morning I received a reply for all three.

PS. I have been playing around in studio one and really love that audio event feature. But I don't think that DAW has moved forward really in the last two years.

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:06 pm

Ok, so I guess the system somehow hangs.
I'll see if I can find out what's wrong.

Cheers,

Tom

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:39 pm

qtheerearranger wrote:Very weird cause I file a few feature requests every week and every once and a while a bug report. I always get responses. For instance I emailed them two days ago with three separate feature requests and this morning I received a reply for all three.

Yeah I'm not sure why some tickets get through and others don't. Maybe I have bad luck this time, but typically I don't have a lot of problems with support.

qtheerearranger wrote:PS. I have been playing around in studio one and really love that audio event feature. But I don't think that DAW has moved forward really in the last two years.

Yeah I like Studio One but I feel the same way. The biggest deal breaker for my with S1 is the lack of scriptability and configurability. I simply wasn't able to integrate it with anything very well. It's fine for audio, just not fantastic for MIDI. Here's hoping they move forward, but I feel like their demographic is "not me".

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:10 pm

This will be looked into tomorrow.
Thanks for reporting it!

Cheers,

Tom

u-u-u · Post by **u-u-u** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:44 pm

EDIT deleted

tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:59 am

xybre wrote:I can't play a live set when I can't load new plugins while playing audio.

It's not supported in any DAW. Don't do that in crucial moment.

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:47 pm

BTW. I just tried this and it works fine on my 6core i7 @4.1 GHz with a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 with Windows 8.1.u x64 Pro and a GeForce GTX660TI. when dragging in Diva, ACE and even Alchemy while playing back all of them.
I was even able to drag a Midi-Mangling Reaktor Ensemble in front of each of them.
Make sure your computer is up to the task, has a good graphics card and there is some headroom in the DSP meter.

Cheers,

Tom

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:27 pm

tooneba wrote:
xybre wrote:I can't play a live set when I can't load new plugins while playing audio.
It's not supported in any DAW. Don't do that in crucial moment.

I've played live in front of an audience without any issues using other DAWs.

ThomasHelzle wrote:BTW. I just tried this and it works fine on my 6core i7 @4.1 GHz with a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 with Windows 8.1.u x64 Pro and a GeForce GTX660TI. when dragging in Diva, ACE and even Alchemy while playing back all of them.
I was even able to drag a Midi-Mangling Reaktor Ensemble in front of each of them.
Make sure your computer is up to the task, has a good graphics card and there is some headroom in the DSP meter.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks for checking for me, I wonder what issue Bitwig has with my setup. Again, since I'm not running into this issue with other DAWs I find it quite perplexing.

tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:02 am

xybre wrote:
tooneba wrote:
xybre wrote:I can't play a live set when I can't load new plugins while playing audio.
It's not supported in any DAW. Don't do that in crucial moment.
I've played live in front of an audience without any issues using other DAWs.

That's your delusion. Ableton still haven't invented the technology to manipulate time. 0.5 sec delay plugin creates 0.5 sec delay unless you have a time manipulation tool.

Bitwig

KVR Audio

Unanswered Support Ticket